[banjobart]

Good thread, guys, very thoughtful.

But I must add that the new USPSA 6-round limit rule for revolvers has not only kept the gamers out of revolver class, it has also kept any and all shooters out of revolver class in the state of Michigan, to the of my best knowledge.

Talk about regulating something out of existence, the "Powers That Be" sure did the job on revolver class in USPSA.

In Michigan there are five of us who were totally geeked to shoot our new "Gamer" 8-shot revolvers in USPSA this season. These guns cost no more than the average 1911 single stack. Well, we refuse to shoot 8 shot arrays with a 6 shot gun. It would be "Magazinus Iterruptus" in my opinion and about as fun as watching paint peel.

So, half the season has gone by now and I have not seen ONE, right folks, not ONE single revolver at a USPSA match in Michigan and I have not missed a Sunday match since the snow melted.

Thanks for looking.

 

[et45]

Perhaps the USPSA will come up with a division for .45acp single stack 1911's to be shot by guys with ribbons in their hair for Pampers to compete in.

 

[Ricky T]

Gentlemen, Please try to stay close to the topic's question.
Thank you in advance.

 

[Scooter]

The only time you're not gaming it is if everyone use a stock gun and stock ammo. Kind of like IROC racing. Everyone uses a stock car prepared by the organizer.

I recall a shooting competition like this for the military school cadets. The firearm companies supplied a specific firearm for each stage. Everyone used the same firearm and most have never shot any of the firearm present.

40's are still the way to go for Limited 10. It just feels quicker to shoot the 40 than the 45.

 

[Alvin]

Originally posted by kbear38S:
Alvin,

Hope one of those is for score only.

Actually, both are used for score. I also shoot my .38 super in Open class, for score, at the same match. I realize that in the USPSA rules that it states that only one gun is to be used, BUT as per standard procedures in matches around the country, at a local monthly match, match directors will NOT turn away shooters that want to shoot more than one gun and are willing to pay full price for all guns fired. We have a number of shooters than shoot two or more guns in our two local USPSA clubs and every club that I have shot at allows the same. This was discussed in length on the IPSA list a few months ago and match directors from coast to coast agreed that they will not turn away shooters that shoot more than one gun. I just can't see driving 1-3 hours just to shoot one gun. I realize that some shooters will say that you have an advantage by shooting the stage and then shooting a different gun--in pratice it doesn't happen. You can check my scores and times and they all are about the same. Not much change between them. Alvin

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by Pampers:
My point about Limited and Limited 10 is that they are the future of the sport.

Nobody's arguing that. The only problem here is that you somehow got the idea that Limited 10 is an 8 round single stack division, which it's not and never was. The Divsion you're looking for is IDPA CSP. Go play with them, they love whiners, especially people who whine about the IPSC rules even though they don't understand them. Tell them about how all the IPSC gamers on the 199Forum were mean to you.

My comments regarding "gaming" in Limited 10 results from my observation of shooters seeking a competative edge in the class. Be it going from .45 to .40 to reduce recoil, or to wide body frames, albeit limited to 10 rounds, to facilitate loading, they're gaming.

And this after your rant about opening up sport to more people and you want to exclude a huge number of guns. Why? Anybody with hardware you think is better than yours shouldn't be allowed to play?

"Gaming" as defined as seeking a competative edge through attempting to "work" the rules rather than through improving shooting ability.

And complaining about people shooting completely legal equipment is called "Whining".

Look at Limited 10 rules. They are expressly designed to prevent gaming, as are the revolver rules.

The Limited 10 rules have noting to do with preventing "Gaming". That rule was implemented in response to high cap mag bans - PERIOD.

I'll repeat: I don't own a Wilson SuperComp. I own a Colt Government Model with a reliability package. NO trick parts. I'll gladly sell it for $4,000!

Except that wasn't the point, was it?

Finally, why are your shorts in such a knot?

My shorts in a knot?? You're the one who went of on your gaming rant.

 

[PK]

For one thing working the rules to your own interpretation is part of the game, or any game for that matter. A truly skilled competitor knows the rules and uses them to his advantage.

However, I don't see using a widebody 40 as working the rules. What about the guy who bought his P16 after them mag ban. Are you gonna make him play in Limited with 10rd mags simply because his gun is a bit wider or the caliber a bit smaller? Limited 10 is not a single stack 1911 catagory. It's was concived to give everyone a place to play with 10rd mags. This includes single stacks, Para/STIs/SVs, modified Glocks and USPs, ect.

 

[supercomp]

an other factor to using a widebody is cost. You can buy a P14 or P16 limited for $749.95 from Dawson precision, and the only thing it needs is a trigger job. throw in the cost of 10 mec gar .45 mags which run about $20.00, you can get started alot cheaper in L10 with a para then with a single stack. should you get the bug to shoot in limited, all you need are high cap mags.



[This message has been edited by supercomp (edited 06-09-2001).]

 

[Pampers]

et45,

Will you be shooting at ORSA next Sunday? Maybe you can identify yourself. You apparently know me, and I DO sign MY posts.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I was shooting in Greenville.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle

 

[ipschoser1]

Whew! I didn't mean to swat the hornets nest by my previous post. I do know that "fat" guns in L10 are within the rules and fair game. Playing by the rules is not whining! To do anything less than take every advantage doesn't make any sense to me. It's a GAME, play to win! Above all, have fun.

 

[Pampers]

Pretty much my point.

USPSA was loosing members, and clubs, at an alarming rate. They, as do I, believed that an uncontrolled equipment race, accompanied by the ever higher cost of getting into the sport, was slowly sufficating the organization. The result of their efforts has been Limited, and Limited 10, and the new, more restrictive, revolver rules. About that: Allowing 8 shot revolvers would have created a one maker (S&W), one gun (627) class. Considering that one manufacturer's political sellout to the forces of Evil, I believe that the decission was correct.

Now then, attempting to "optimize" your competative advantages through maximizing the lattitude allowed WITHIN the rules IS gaming. Sorry if you see that as a perjorative, but that's what it is. BUT as long as you stay WITHIN the rules, there's no problem. The problem arose when there weren't enough restrictions (limitations) to control skyrocketing costs, which were forcing active shooters out of the sport, and preventing new ones from coming in. Now, THERE ARE. End of problem? Hopefully!


Yr. Obt. Svnt.

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle

 

[kbear38S]

Originally posted by Pampers:
The result of their efforts has been Limited.

Limited has been around for what, 8? 10? years now?

Now then, attempting to "optimize" your competative advantages through maximizing the lattitude allowed WITHIN the rules IS gaming.

Actually, that's NOT gaming. Gaming is procedural and doesn't have anything to do with hardware. An example of gaming might be intentionally not engaging a target because the miss penalty has less of an impact on the hit factor than the time it would take to shoot it. Another example might be the competitor who notices that the stage procedures doesn't say shoot targets X, Y, Z from Port A ONLY and so engages those targets from some other, more advantageous shooting position.

The term gaming as applied to guns is strictly in the language domain of IDPA type whiners.

Tell me there Pampers, don't you think your $2000 Wilson is a little gamey compared to the with a $400 mil-spec 1911 some people are stuck with? Isn't that trigger job, match barrel, hand fitted slide/frame, just taking advantage of the rules for a competitive advantage? It's gaming according to your definition, or do you just apply that term to equipment you don't own?


[This message has been edited by kbear38S (edited 06-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by kbear38S (edited 06-10-2001).]

 

[kbear38S]

...AD'd on the submit button and this silly forum won't let you delete your own posts so I'll put this drivel in instead...

[This message has been edited by kbear38S (edited 06-10-2001).]

 

[Kent Dorfman]

Wow. I just got back in town from Area 4 and the NM State Match and find this thread. It went from "I like a 40 Single stack, to Limited 10 was created to screw the gamers."

Well, as a shooter first, I like a fat gun in either 40 or 45 for L-10. I suppose if I were about 20 years older I would think that using a fat gun for L-10 gaming. A small part of me does think it should have been a single stack division. But, that is not what the USPSA L-10 rules say. The rules for the Single Stack classic say it must be a single stack. So, I built a Caspian Single Stack. Should I have bought a Colt or a Springfield? Am I a gamer because I use brass mag pads and a tungsten guide rod? No, no and no. Would I rather use an STI fat gun frame modified for single stack mags? Yes. But the rules don’t allow it.

As a USPSA Club President and USPSA Section Coordinator I will tell you this concerning L-10 and fat guns. L-10 was NOT created with single stacks in mind. Not in any way shape or form. Nor was it created to chase away gamers. L-10 WAS created to allow those in states who can not have anything other than 10 round mags, and for those who can not legally get/own high caps. I repeat, L-10 was not created for single stacks. People new to the sport who want to do well will eventually buy a high cap gun and a couple high caps. And then use 10 rounders as they need to. L-10 allows them to compete if the don’t want to break ANY laws regarding mags.

Production class was designed to keep the gaming to a minimum and attract new members. How has production class gone over? Like a fart in church. Just to show my support for the new division, I haven’t shot anything but production for 8 months. Am I a gamer? Yes. Is IPSC a game? Yes. If you really hate gamers as much as it appears, go to www.idpa.com You wont find a single stack division there either.

I shoot IDPA also and take advantage of every advantage the rules allow me to. That is why there are rules. I will not break the rules, nor will I change what I do, the equipment I shoot, or how I shoot to make someone happy when they think the rules meant to say something they do not.

Tom Freeman
SC, Eastern Colorado

 

[ESPGamerShark]

Gee fellas you really are upset

I shot IPSC long enough to know it really stands for Irritable People Squabbling Constantly

I am just chiming in to let you gamer types in limited 10 with your 40 fatguns know you are not unique. I have seen a few 40 fat guns in IDPA ESP class, I will soon begin using one myself.

Play by the rules, play to win

Keith

 

[PK]

At least we don't spend all our time squating behind barrels instead of shooting

Most people who shoot IPSC play to win. If that means widebodys in 40 in L10 so be it. I've seen single stack relaods that were faster than 90% of double stack reloads. Shoot what you wish, as long as it's within the rules.

 

[Pampers]

Come on people, lighten up!

My point is this: The USPSA was experiencing excessive attrition in both members & clubs. I believe that this was because of ever increasing costs caused by an uncontrolled equipment race which discouraged new shooters from coming in, and caused existing shooters to drop out as their equipment became obsolete. I further believe that USPSA has taken steps to correct the situation. So, LIGHTEN UP!

I was introduced to IDPA by shooters who HAD BEEN USPSA shooters, but had left because of the above. I have at least four IDPA clubs within easy driving distance of my house. I have ONE USPSA club! We did have more, but ... .

I got Wilson to build my gun BEFORE I started shooting ANY competation. I got it built because the damned thing WOULDN'T feed ANYTHING! My intension in entering competition is to MASTER MY WEAPON, not to beat the next guy. I had enough of equipment races and rulebook "reading" back when I was racing. It finally got too damned expensive, and NO longer any fun.

Now, about the attitude that if you don't like the current situation, LEAVE! Shooters did; in droves! Where do you suppose IDPA, Single Stack and CORE came from? THAT IS THE ATTITUDE THAT CAUSED THE HEMORAGING OF MEMBERSHIP! Please! Enjoy your particular division, BUT allow the Ogranization to adapt to survive!

------------------
Fred J. Drumheller
NRA Life
Nra Golden Eagle

 

[shane45]

Hehehehe Well let me jump in here. All these devisions and new organizations mean to me is I can increase my deversity of competition. I originally started shooting open class IPSC with my para. I have since purchased a HK USP so I can go play with IDPA or shoot IPSC limited or production or whatever and... I purchased a single stack for limited 10 or IDPA or any single stack division that may come along. Hell I even considered buying a glock so I can play there too... but its a glock.. hehehe Just Kidding don't flame me. To all of you that don't see that value in open class "its not real" blah blah blah I submit that shooting the amount of ammo it takes to be reasonably good, makes you good at shooting across the board, no matter the discapline. I shot many years but once I shot IPSC open, all my shooting improved dramatically. I would bet that if/when I try IDPA I will be very good out of the box as a result of IPSC! Much the same way a Grand Prix Racer will automatically be very good at INDY. Of couse his 4 million dollar indy car has no place on the street! hehehe

 

[Kent Dorfman]

Pampers, I was not telling you to leave USPSA and go shoot IDPA. I was telling you to go to the IDPA web site and you would find that there is no single stack division in IDPA either.

Please continue to shoot USPSA, just don’t call people gamers when they are playing within the rules.

Our club has an annual fun mulligan match. Only single stacks and Glocks compete for plaques. All others can shoot, but no prizes or trophies to anyone other than the Single Stacks or Glocks.

Me, lighten up? If I were any more laid back, I would end taking naps between reloads.

Tom
SC, Eastern Colorado

 

[Alleycat]

To return to the topic, my first choice is my custom 1911 single stack in .45 acp, 'cause that's how it should be

Second choice, though, is my HK USP .40 C, and ti's darned nice to have a place to shoot it that doesn't involve trying to keep up with the widebodies.

Fat vs thin? c'mon, gang, how many of us depend on that .5 second reload difference (if there really is one) to make or break our day?

Steve

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"Formerly we suffered from crimes; now we suffer from laws." --- Publius Cornelius Tacitus