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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
OK, we may be starting a new league at a local club in SE Minn. At this point its still speculation, but if I had to choose one of these to -start- off with, which would it be? I am hoping shortly after getting things up asnd running, we will add the other. I am just looking for input on which is best to do the first year. -H
 

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Hmmm. IDPA or IPSC for a beginer.

Yes.

IDPA is good practice for IPSC.

IPSC is good practice for IDPA.

Both are good at teaching gun handling skills.

Both suck at tactics.

Both are games.

I enjoy both.

If you decide to *just* shoot one or the other, just dont start bashing the other because its not your chosen game. Thats a true sign of a small person.
 

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Talk to as many of the prospective members before hand... let them help vote.

Of the people you shoot with, what type of gear is most common.

I'd guess IDPA would have lower start up costs for a shooter than USPSA (I'd guess IDPA is closer to Production Division), and ou might get more signups from that alone.
 

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In the context of a start-up club, IDPA is MUCH easier. You send in your club affiliation fee, Berryville sends you an instructional video tape and a rule book, and away you go. There's no reporting, no sending of money, to HQ. You run your show. However, you must have a certified Safety Officer as a club member/officer. Contact the Area Coordinator concerning a SO class, if you don't already have a SO in your group.
USPSA/IPSC has more layers of bureaucracy, and the paperwork is much more extensive. You would still need to have certified Range Officers, but I don't know if HQ actually keeps tabs on it, or not.
I was Veep of an IPSC club for three years, and have been Prez of an IDPA club for four.
 

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Yes!

Both are fun and as Tom Freeman says both are games. Less fuss with IDPA IMHO.

We have lots of laughs with our IDPA type shooting. None of us are about to win any National Awards but none of us care either. Emphasis is about having fun....and we do.

Stay Safe
 

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Rather than you deciding on what to do....why not poll your customers (shooters) and find out that THEY want. That way you're sure to win rather than missing the target audience all together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks, the feedback is great, I am presenting to the board next Tuesday, a bit scary as I have to come up with figures for the dirt work as well as try to guestimate new members and costs/revenue etc... I spoke with both orgs last week, asked for packets from IDPA and USPSA, USPSA's came Saturday, no IDPA packet yet, not an indictment or anything. Hoping to have both before the meeting.

I do not want to choose myself. I shot PSA last year for the first time, so I have only that experience, only because the night worked out better to travel to the club. The club I shot at had both, and my hope is to have both locally too. Just at first it might be better to start with one.

If anyone has any ideas about what the startup costs are for equipment etc... excluding digging the stages, I'd be glad to have it. The other club charged $10 per person per week, so that's the revenue model I'm using, hopefully it will not loose money. The club is in good financial state, they would welcome the use of the facility as it sits idle most evenings.
Thanks, -H
 

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harmonii said:
I spoke with both orgs last week, asked for packets from IDPA and USPSA, USPSA's came Saturday, no IDPA packet yet
Before I even saw your most recent post, I was going to recommend USPSA for the very reason that IDPA tends to be frustratingly slow and unreliable in its communication with clubs and members. While this may not be a big deal once you're up and running, it could make things really difficult at first. This is not intended as a bash, but there really is a difference between a large non-profit organization with about 15,000 active members, a professional staff, reasonably up-to-date computer technology, and a fairly stable rulebook (USPSA), versus a side business that Bill Wilson runs out of his shop (IDPA). Both types of shooting can be very beneficial and enjoyable, though, and I think it's great you're planning to run both games at your club.

Best of luck,
Mike
 

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I've been running our small IDPA club here in Bigfork, MT for just about 2 years now. It was going to go bye-bye and I really didn't want to see it go, so with virtually no experience, I decided to step up. The first year saw some growing pains and this last year things started to smooth out real nice. Some older shooters returned and helped me out. I'm tinkering with the idea of holding the Montana State Match here next year. We average only about 15-20 shooters per match, but when you consider the fact that most large cities have 2-3 times the population than our entire state, it kind of makes sense.

I wish I could disagree with carmoney, but IDPA HQ can be a veritable pain is the a$$. I don't know necessarily why, but it can be difficult to correspond with them in a timely manner. With that being said, I have found a wealth of information on various forums (Brian Enos, IDPA Forum, etc.). There are some folks out there who can answer a lot of questions without having to wait weeks, sometimes even months. At times, IDPA HQ has been fairly prompt in their answers, at other times - well............

I don't want to say that IDPA is necessarily geared towards new shooters, but we have an average of 2-3 new shooters every match (perhaps the low number of targets, the short and sweet stages, and the everday carry gear is what appeals to them), while our USPSA matches generally have the same "experienced" shooters attending on a regular basis. Most of the "newbies" I've seen at the USPSA matches have started out shooting IDPA with us (kinda get hooked on that round count thing. :)) I have known IDPA shooters who have no desire to shoot USPSA for one reason or another (which is quite rare actually), but I have also known the opposite to be true. In fact, we rarely have USPSA shooters attend our IDPA matches (for one reason or another. ;)).

Other than that, I can't add much to the excellant replies you've gotten.
 

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At my IDPA club, they charge $10 for the match and $5 per gun you shoot (or division) So standard cost per shooter with one gun is $15. We run monthly matches, and they give out trophies for each division and class that is classified.

For me, (asa shooter) when starting, IDPA was more attractive because of the lower startup costs for equipment. I think it is easier to get people to come out and at least try an IDPA match, since there is no "arms race" or at least they try to keep it minimal...
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Many of you cite startup costs for shooters. Having no preference, and having shot USPSA last year a few times just bacause of the night, I can't see where I spent the money, already had a PMA 1911, I did add a holster for $16 bucks and some mag holders, but we have a few guys who shoot both with the same equipment. Maybe there is something I'm not considering here? Please feel free to educate me. -Harmon

P.S. (ed) I want to have a weekly league, the $10 per shooter at the other club was for their weekly shoot, I think they run a 12-14 week league through early fall. Holding competitions are a whole other matter, we'll get to that I hope. -H
 

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Thinking about Montana State IDPA match

LeMat said:
I'm tinkering with the idea of holding the Montana State Match here next year. We average only about 15-20 shooters per match, but when you consider the fact that most large cities have 2-3 times the population than our entire state, it kind of makes sense.
Everyone, please pardon the trip into the boonies with this thread....

LeMat,
As you may know, Idaho is in the same boat, club size wise as Montana and we just put on our first State match this fall. I'd love to see another sanctioned match in our general area.

If you are interested in some of our detailed planning, let me know. Contact freeidaho at yahoo dot com.

Ken Reed
 

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The Drew said:
For me, (asa shooter) when starting, IDPA was more attractive because of the lower startup costs for equipment. I think it is easier to get people to come out and at least try an IDPA match, since there is no "arms race" or at least they try to keep it minimal...
The arms race is purely an optional thing in USPSA competition. If you want to play in the Limited or Open divisions, you can choose to get in the equipment race and spend some big money. But the fastest growing division in USPSA right now seems to be Production, and if you're good enough, you can win with an unmodified Glock or XD or CZ pistol (or whatever) from a cheap kydex holster and generic ammo from Wal-Mart. I'm not talking just participating--I'm talking winning!

I competed all over the country this past year with a S&W 625 I bought at a gun show for $450. With that gun I am now leading the USPSA Point Series in the Revolver division. No arms race there, everybody pretty much uses the same sort of rig.

I also really enjoy shooting 1911s, and this year the new provisional Single-Stack 1911 division that USPSA is launching is gathering a great deal of interest. This year at the Iowa Single Stack match, I managed to finish 4th overall (against a tough field from several states) using my Springfield Loaded (stock other than a trigger job, magwell, fiber-optic sight, and grip tape on the frontstrap), a $15 Uncle Mike's holster and matching mag pouches, and Wolf factory ball ammo!

Oddly enough, IDPA has gotten real touchy about their equipment rules over the past year or so. For example, the Uncle Mike's kydex holsters that everybody loves are no longer legal for IDPA. In USPSA, you can pretty much show up with what you have, as long as it's safe, and it will fit in some division or another. Just make sure you have lots of ammo and magazines for the longer stages!

Mike
 

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carmoney said:
The arms race is purely an optional thing in USPSA competition.... Mike
I'm glad someone pointed this out. USPSA is what you make of it....you can go racy or stock if you want and there are divisions in place to support either. Nice summary Mike on the different divisions and what they mean.

BTW, is Sam your son? If so, congrats to you and him....for others who don't know, Sam Carmoney was featured in this months Front Sight shooting a revolver.

USPSA is growing rapidly right now. This year, they've broken past membership numbers. Its hard to point to specific reasons why USPSA is growing ... but I would imagine a good part of it is IDPA shooters who become disenchanted with some of the recent rule changes or rules in general. This is the primary reason I suggested polling your shooters. If they're IPDA shooters who don't want to play IPSC or visa versa, you could be setting up a program (based on initial start up costs) that cater to a minority of shooters.

Steve
 

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For club start up costs and also being easy, IDPA is the way to go. Both USPSA and IDPA are very good. They each bring their own to the shooters table, and each provide things to learn and enhance your abiltity.

With USPSA you have to send a percentage of your match fees in. You also have to send in your monthly reports and classifiers and the fee for the classifiers. There is none of this with IDPA. If you don't have a structured club, USPSA may be very well tiring for one person to do. Don't get me wrong as the same applies to IDPA.

As for the club costs, targets and pasters are pretty much the same amount of money. Where you will put your money is in reactive targets and barriers. These are not needed in the beginning, but will add more enjoyment in the future.

Another thing to consider is how many USPSA clubs and IDPA clubs are around you and what days they shoot. This could also sway your decision.

Both shooting games require certified SO's. IDPA classes are "loose" at best. But they are better than nothing and it does help somewhat with common rules among the various clubs. USPSA classes are much more structured. I believe this and their rule book is why USPSA has less rule issues at matches (but they still do).

For the costs to shooters, there is none. If a Production shooter wants to shoot IDPA he can shoot SSP, and vice versa for the SSP shooter. A CDP shooter can go and shoot L10 where L10 may need to make a holster and mag carrier change to shoot CDP. I myself use SSP equipment and shoot Production and L10 in minor, and SSP and ESP in IDPA. There is no equipment issue that holds me back.

Most of this has been stated, but I thought I would throw a twist to it. Hope it helps. Good luck.

Jay
 

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vapors750 said:
BTW, is Sam your son? If so, congrats to you and him....for others who don't know, Sam Carmoney was featured in this months Front Sight shooting a revolver.
Thanks Steve....yep, that's our Sam. Wheelguns are still his favorite, but he's pretty steady with a 1911 also, and next season will see him shooting more SS/L-10 at the various USPSA matches.

Mike
 

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Why not just shoot matches to start without any affiliation. Set up both IDPA and USPSA type stages and see what you specific crowd likes. If you have a few people that have shot both then they can design stuff for you. If you dont have a good turnout then you havent gone through the trouble.
 

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Startup cost

Don't forget stuff like Target stands, which can be made fairly cheap out of wood to start with or you can purchase them.. Steel poppers and plates for USPSA ?.. Swingers and Clam shell's if you so desire, Walls for hard cover.. etc.. Fault lines, start boxes, and various other sundry items.. such as that.. most of it can be made fairly cheap, i'm not sure of the Steel costs though..
Plastic 55 gal barrels are handy to have for barriers etc..

Really depends on how much stuff you want to invest in to start with..

The two local clubs that i shoot at one charges $15.00 per match the other Is $20. both monthly matches.. I was shooting idpa every other week and it was $15.00 per night.

Biggest problem is getting folks to help setup and tear down and basic maintenance at the matches.. good luck i can only imagine how hard starting up would be.
 

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Hunterjbb said:
Biggest problem is getting folks to help setup and tear down and basic maintenance at the matches.. good luck i can only imagine how hard starting up would be.
In my experience...this is the #1...most important...thing.

As a Match Director, you need to have in the back of your head that you just might have to do all the work yourself...and, accept that. But, to keep the club matches alive, and avoid burn-out, you have to ask for help in stage design, set-up, running the match, tear-down, scoring, etc.

If you try it as a one-man show...you will go down with the ship.

Let the shooters know that you are a volunteer. That the matches are made possible by everybody pitching in for their match.

I always make sure to let the the shooters know what time the gate to the range opens for set-up. ;)

As for scoring and reporting to USPSA. That is just a few clicks in the scoring software now (if your are attached to the internet, which you are). Piece of cake.

You do have to pay a per shooter "mission count" to USPSA. That is one way they get funds to continue. The trade off there is that the shooters are NOT required to be members (as in IDPA). Six in one...half-dozen in the other... (That can be paid electronically too.)

For Level I USPSA (local) matches, you don't have to have certified RO's...but it is not a bad idea.

Talk with USPSA about hosting a Range Officer class. Never hurts.
 
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