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Yes I posted this on THR, I should put this is General Discussion but I hardly ever venture in there, I'm in this forum every day. If not posting then lurking, and I mean every day. I feel I belong more to the Colt forum than the forum as a whole. Dana, if you want you can move it.

I'm posting this to share a REAL WORLD example of how I don't THINK I would have been able to rack the slide or cock the hammer on my Gov't .380 had I been carrying it. The safety is another matter, as it's simply a quick flick of the thumb.

Here's the uber long story. Bear with it, please:


I was just out for my nightly hour long run (I need to make a little room in my pants waist for an NRM Colt 1991.) Now, I had my headphones on and was listening to "Locomotive Breath" by Jethro Tull and I was running my usual route through the neighborhood. As I'm tooling along all the sudden I hear a dark barking and growling so ferociously I almost tripped over myself. I then turned my head to the left in time to see a big, black dog running full steam towards me snarling and growling up a storm. I, without even thinking, started to slowly step back as he had slowed down himself about 25 feet away from me. I thought if I slowly backed away, he would leave me be. Wrong. He kept following me, growling and snarling as loud as ever. I turned and saw a blue plastic recycling tub at the foot of someone's driveway. I immediately ran for it, picked it up and turned towards the dog. I had to weapon, I figured I could improvise. Then, I thought...I've got a decent lead on him ... he hasn't moved much. I dropped the recycling tub and ran just as fast as God would allow me. I have never run so hard or fast in my life. I was already hurting and had slowed down as I was nearing the end of my walk. I ran so, so fast with my head up, back straight and arms swaying as to grab the air and pull me along faster. I looked back to see the dog following me. He must have chased me for a good 100 yards and then he backed down, seemingly uninterested in killing or harming me anymore. I continued to run just as fast as I can for about 1/4 mile back to my house and called 911.

Now, big deal you might say. Dog chased you, wow. NO, listen. I am a CWL holder in FL and carry daily. I either carry my Kel-tec P-3AT or Colt Gov't .380 on my person and have a Taurus PT-940 in my car. I would carry a fullsize .45 but I don't have the room in my pants to spare - yet. Now, the point to my thread is I will never go running without my Kel-tec again. I will never run back in the neighbor hood this dog was in, but I will keep running. What I realized tonight was how quickly he bore down on me and how helpless I was. If I was carrying my Colt, it would have been round chambered, hammer down safety off. I will always carry it C&L now. I believe I will send my P-3AT back to KEl-tec for a fluff and buff so it feeds HPs reliably and carry it with me while running.

So the police officer that was dispatched knocked on my door. He said he didn't see the dog but would go back out and look after I explained just what had happened. I also told him I think I should carry some pepper spray or something with me. He looked at me and said "I run with a gun." I thought about it, and said "I have a concealed weapons permit and a kel-tec .380. I'm going to run with a gun too."

The point to this is not about running and dogs it IS about carrying safely but in a manner that would allow you to react to a threat instantly. I might have been able to cock the hammer of my Colt, but with my mind racing, adrenaline pumping and my mind going HOLY SH$%, I don't think so. All of you who carry without one in the hole and say I'll just practice unholstering and chambering...those precious seconds could mean being attacked by a rabid animal, a human with a knife or being shot. Now, that was about the ultimate test of my situational awareness, reaction time, action under stress and problem solving. I couldn't see the dog as he was all black, the street lights were uber dim and he was behind bushes. However, as soon as I heard him, I reacted and I believe I reacted in a manner that saved me from at very leasst being mauled. I don't know what his intentions were, but they did not look friendly by any means. To be honest, I wasn't even scared until after the fact. My mind took over and I ran for cover and looked for a weapon. In this case a rubbermaid recycling bin. I'm sorry if I seem high and mighty but I'm very proud of the way I handled myself under pressure. Please think, people...This may or may not have been a life threatening event. At any rate, a dog bite by a stray would still lead to hospitalization. Please don't any of you fall because you think you can practice racking a slide in .00000000001 seconds. In this case the dog was already charging me before I saw him. Think about this. For all my 1911 bretheren, keep it cocked and locked.

Animal control called me and said that the police officer cancelled the call because I was "un-cooperative". She handed me her pager so I could see the message myself. Funny, said I, I told him everything and he was the one who was in a great hurry to leave. Lazy S.O.B.

So I hopped in my truck and they followed me to the house. She said that there is a dog who lives directly across from where he jumped out at me that bit a girl rollerblading last year. I described the dog as best I could and she said she would be back tomorrow to talk to both home owners. If the it turns out to be the same dog that bit the girl, she will ask me to identify it and then write the owner a citation. I will very politely explain to the owner that his gross negligence could very well have cost him his dog had I been carrying. I do believe in that situation I would have been justified in shooting. Even the animal control officer told me to carry an "object" while running because I have every right to defend myself.

So, we shall see what becomes of this tomorrow. I'm just happy I'm not in Tampa General Hospital getting a tetnis shot in the stomach and some bandages, ya know?
 

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Just watch what you say to the dog's owner, unless you want a future confrontation with a two-legged feral animal as well. Some owners think their dogs have a right to chase people, and don't appreciate somebody saying they might hurt their dog. Believe me, sometimes the stories of pets being just like their owners is absolutely true.
 

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FWIW

Try this on a quiet stretch of road, away from anyone else:
Practice (Unloaded) reacting to the threat, drawing & aiming your weapon, then moving away/ to cover, using whatever pistol/ holster combo you use. Start slow, then work to the point that you can push (Run) hard uphill until really hurting/ winded and still effectively engage your target/ threat. Dexterity sucks when you're at your limits of aerobic capacity. Don't count on an adrenaline surge to give you sudden coordination and fire control. Little pull tabs on belly bag zippers become hard to pull, thumb breaks can be difficult. Cold hands make it even harder. Practice will reduce the fumble factor :rolleyes:
PS- The headphones really reduce your situational awareness when running, suggest leaving them at home.
Good luck and keep up your running program.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Re: FWIW

UnSafe said:

Don't count on an adrenaline surge to give you sudden coordination and fire control. Little pull tabs on belly bag zippers become hard to pull, thumb breaks can be difficult. Cold hands make it even harder.
Which is EXACTLY the point of my post. A real time, not "practice" or "simulated" high stress scenario where I think that could have been a problem. If not just because of me possibly fumbling to rack a slide or cock a hammer...but because of the time constraint in actually doing those actions.
 

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Joe T

The way I see it you extracted yourself from this situation intact. Therefore for this situation you did everything correctly. Though here are two points to ponder for the next encounter.

1. Most dogs will chase anything that is running, or moving through what they think is their territiory. Stopping and getting an object (like the recycling can) between you and the dog then slowly backing away when the dog is bored with you, may be a better decision depending on how far away the animal is. When attacking, dogs attack from behind. So running away can very well be making the situation worse, because you are playing into the animals instinct, you will not be aware of where the threat is, and you cannot react to it.

2. If the dog is big, like a Rotwiler (sp?), Pitbull, German Shepard, Great Dane, etc., a .380 is really a light caliber and it may not do what you need it too, as fast as you need it too. Considering your experience you might want to consider a small revolver in .357 magnum. A Ruger SP101 or S&W Centenial would be a good choice in a new revolver, or if you an find one a Colt Python with 2 1/2 inch barrel. Your Taurus would also be a good choice compared to a .380.

Be Careful and Stay Safe.
Str8_Shot
 

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I have yet to meet a dog that i could not either calm down, or take down.I worked as a garbage man in the summers in high school and had a lot of run ins. the only one that actually got me was a little ankle bighter that I ignored, good thing i had boots on LOL! I am sure the situation could arise that with multiple dogs it could be a huge problem and I allways have my 45 with 2 extra mags. I have never run from a dog and I would think that if he wanted to he could have easily caught you and taken you down. glad everything turned out ok for you
 

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I second the suggestion about running without headphones. In my area, I see people running,walking and even bicycling with head phones on winding two lane roads. Can't hear the motor vehicles, animals or much of anything else.
 

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I agree that if that dog wanted you, it would probably have no trouble catching you.. These concerns are exactly whay I chose my glock, nothing to fumble with.. Just draw and fire..
 

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One more small edge...

Precious time is lost in a threatening encounter from behind by wearing headphones. I would never, ever, EVER wear headphones out on a walk/run. You could be killed (or seriously accosted/injured) before you even knew/saw that there was a threat. Give yourself every advantage when you're out there!:eek:
 

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It seems like that is a frequent occurance with runners and dogs. I run pretty often and have had the same occurnace on several occasions. The most memorable is the two middle aged woemn walking a midsized dog, 60 lbs, and as I pass them on a wide track the dog jumps up and bites me in the side. I was pissed since it was on a leash but held loosely out about 8 ft. I kept going until I was home and realized that it did draw blood. Luckily I had tetnus shots recently. I got back into my car and looks for the ladies. Luckily they were outside their house as I drove by gabbing. I stopped and said that the dog drew blood when it bit me. The reply was very apologetic but she therw this in, " She only does this to runners, I don't know why?" At that point she clearly eluded to the fact that this is a common occurance with this dog. I mentioned that if it happens again I will call the police, press charges, and make sure the dog gets the blue juice. I love dogs, I dislike stupid pet owners. I try to run with some OC spray. Little for the pursuing dog, more for the owner when I catch up to he/her.

I particular dislike the people walking the pit bull/ rottie, doberman, sheppard on a 12 ft lead knowing that the dog is aggressive while looking into the great unknown.

The dog is just doing it's job, the owners on the otherhand should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. And those laws should be much more strict and enforced. Afterall, dogs and be just as dangerous as any other weapon, sometimes more so.
 

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A couple of weeks ago I was out running with my lapdog and a German Shepard jumped over a chainlink fence and started running toward us. I turned around to face it and yelled at it in my "dog command voice". It turned around, ran away, then started coming back again when I turned around. I just had to keep yelling at it, pointing my finger at it, acting aggressive, but not too aggressive, etc., until it finally jumped back over its fence.

I'm thinking that an asp baton would be handy, but probably not legal. Running with a gun seems a bit cumbersome. If you don't drop it you're going to sweat all over it, or it's going to shake too much and cause your pants to fall down. I have considered a chest harness made by eagle industries, but it seems pretty hard to conceal.

--tdow
 

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Joe;

I think if you are going to tangle with a "big black dog" you had best forget about the .380. Keep it with you only when you really don't want to carry a gun.

Good luck, humans are pretty defenseless when it comes to big dogs. Lots of folks have fantasies about what they would do, but..... If he knocks you down, you are fighting for your life from a position of real disadvantage.

Think about your odds against an animal which can crush a broomstick!

Cheers!
 

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lets see, most dogs, under 200 lbs, me 230 lbs, dogs? one weapon, there mouth. Me? good right and left hooks, uppercuts, front snap kick, round kick, turn kick etc. One of my encounters with a large dog was when i was in 11th grade. I had a 167 lbs dog blind side me, I turned and when he lunged again for me I caught him with a hard left hook on his lower jaw, his mouth was open as he was going for my throat, and i broke his jaw. Dog got put to sleep. I fight dogs with the same mentality as I would a person. Coltrol their weapon and use mine on them. The worst I have ever come out is 37 stitches in my left arm, and that was from the dog that latched onto me as I was attempting to save him from the 10 or so large dogs trying to kill him. I saved the dog, but I had to go to the hospital. Dog was banged up but ok, I got 37 stitches. I was 8 years old, and still have the scars to prove it.
 

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Pepper spray is a good idea to carry. It might work better than a .380 especially on a Rotty or pitbull.Headphones are bad to be using if you really want to be aware of your surroundings. I wouldn't doubt that alot of women joggers are attacked while wearing headphones.Carrying cocked and locked should be the only way you'd carry such designed gun for exactly the reason you suggested.
 

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The owners are the ones at fault when a loose or unrestrained dog attacks. The dog is doing what is his natural instinct to protect his territory. Small bore guns will be useless on a large dog unless you have time for a well placed shot. I would do everything in my power to avoid shooting an animal as the law will probably throw charges about discharging a firearm, wanton endangerment, etc. even though you know it was a case of self defense. (and they do to) regardless of what an officer may tell you it will be the city, county or state that will file charges and the like.
My defence from experience is this: Stop with your arms at your side with your palms out towards the dog. I know this sounds like you are inviting yourself to be attacked and its harder to do under stress than it sounds. If you run/jog etc. it would be a good idea to talk to a handler/trainer to assure you of the best response and to put you at ease. Pepper spray is the best protection method and is kept handy by most workers that must risk coming in contact with dogs. It must be worn on the outside of your attire where it can be easily accessed.
You are lucky that you heard the barking/growling. A properly trained personal protection dog will never bark/growl etc. as he is attacking. The only time you will hear him is when he is in a holding position. Keeping you in a corner etc. More and more gangbangers,wanna-be drug dealers and other assorted trash are getting these dangerous dogs as a status symbol. It is an owner's responsibility to keep the dog on his property and on a leash or muzzle if necessary. What is wrong with the way these dogs are handled today is this: people see viscious dogs on tv etc. and they go out and buy one never considering that in order to safely utilize this dog as much as 2 yrs. of daily training by an experieced dog handler is what it takes to make this dog safe. Usually around 25-50k worth of expense.
I live in the country with closest neighbors being 1/4 mi. away. I should be able to run whenever I want however, to avoid the problems associated with dogs and ignorant drivers I choose to drive 7 mi. to a park that has a couple miles of pavement or grass to run on. Yes its a hassle! However I almost ran over a runner tonight on the way home from work. He was wearing glow in the dark vest and headphones but thought that he had the right of way I guess, and ran right in front of me. Glad I had 4 wheel discs and was watching him as I approached.
Glad you are ok! And hope this never happens again. But ultimately you are the only one who will be responsible for your own well fare and you must decide what is right and what you feel comfortable with. Believe me when you are bitten or mauled and you use self defence you will most likely spend between 5-10k minimum for your defense if authorities are made aware of your situation althogh I agree that you would be in the "right". Also with todays political climate and the court system/lawyers if the owner has access to very much "extra" money he may pay off the right people and you may find yourself the guilty party. This may seem far fetched but it happens regularly.
These are just some of my life experiences. Your results may vary. Again, glad you are OK!
 

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What is wrong with the way these dogs are handled today is this: people see viscious dogs on tv etc. and they go out and buy one never considering that in order to safely utilize this dog as much as 2 yrs. of daily training by an experieced dog handler is what it takes to make this dog safe. Usually around 25-50k worth of expense.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this comment. I own a Staffordshire Terrier which is larger than a Pitbull but looks very similar to folks that don't know any better. Aside from a socialization class and obedience clases, my dog did not need thousands of dollars of training to be behaved on or off lease. I certainly wouldn't let him run loose or off least at any time unless he was in a fenced yard.I wouldn't do that with any dog. I also live in an apartment complex where 80% of the residents here own pitbulls and all of the ones I've encountered were great dogs. I'd also say that 75% of those owners are regular joes's and some are single women. The only dogs I have ever been attacked by or had try and attack my dog were mixed breed dogs of some sheperd or other mix. I think every dog needs some kind of behavior training but certainly not thousands of dollars unless you're looking for a trained watch/attack dog. Sorry to get off topic but stereotyping pitbulls and pitbull owners is just as bad as those that say all gun owners are bad or all assault weapons are only used to kill people.
 

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Good point Reddevil, a lot of dogs mimic the behavior of their leader of their pack. I have six big dogs, if you are supposed to be there they are very nice, if you are not, they arn't. None of them would ever attack a person wlking by them while on a leash unless exibiting aggresive behavior.
 

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Folks:

Forget Fantasy Land! I am not saying that a person with extremely fast reflexes and skills can not get a lucky shot at a large dog and hurt the animal. But as a rule that is BS. I earn my living as an animal handler. A large agreesive dog like a Rottie, a Pit Bull, a Bull Mastiff or a Presa Canario will cause you severe injuries, and if the dog has had attack training forget it. Animals are extremely strong, stronger than you think. They only use enough to get the job done unlike people who tend to overkill.
Don't just go by how big you are and how big the animal is (well a 200 pound man against a chihuahua might be a fair match:D )
I know this is off the subject a bit, but I will tell you this, a 150 lb chimp will take a 250 lb human and rip him a new A hole.
Don't take chances with unknown animals.
 
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