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Hello all, I’m a new 1911 owner. I’ve been keeping an eye out for a government 1911 for a while when I happened across this one at a local gun shop. I took the chance at buying it for a pretty reasonable price, but I’m starting to wonder if my nerves and excitement from thinking I found a military issue 1911 may have clouded my judgment and I really bought something I shouldn’t have.
According to the store I bought it from, it is a WWI colt frame, with a WWII Remington Rand side. As far as the side goes from everything I have found online, it appears to have been made in 1943. But the frame is what has me troubled. The lack of any “United states property” is the most troubling, but also the location of the serial number. If anyone could shed some light on what this frame actually is, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Hello all, I’m a new 1911 owner. I’ve been keeping an eye out for a government 1911 for a while when I happened across this one at a local gun shop. I took the chance at buying it for a pretty reasonable price, but I’m starting to wonder if my nerves and excitement from thinking I found a military issue 1911 may have clouded my judgment and I really bought something I shouldn’t have.
According to the store I bought it from, it is a WWI colt frame, with a WWII Remington Rand side. As far as the side goes from everything I have found online, it appears to have been made in 1943. But the frame is what has me troubled. The lack of any “United states property” is the most troubling, but also the location of the serial number. If anyone could shed some light on what this frame actually is, it would be greatly appreciated.

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Dzach,

Welcome to the Forum !

Good News,---and, bad news.

The markings at the disconnecter identify your receiver as a COLT M1911 with an original Serial number in the approximate range of No. 400 through No 7500 (the good news).

Unfortunately, the USP roll-stamp, serial number, and inspection marks have been scrubbed/removed (the bad). And, without BATF paperwork addressing the added Serial Number, having this receiver is a problem. If you can return it, it might be a good idea.

Best Regards,
 

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an old Cosa Nosta gun, probably Pretty Boy Floyd's.

NV
 

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Not all weapons manufactured before 1968 have serial numbers, read through the GCA of 1968 for more info. I have imported weapons which have both the original Foreign Government Serial Number and the number stamped in by the importer. I recorded both into my log books. In reality, uninformed Local Law Enforcement going nuts over a weapon without a serial number is the biggest risk, but you do have a serial number. I stamp serial numbers into all of the 80% frames and receivers I complete just incase some uninformed local or State LEO goes nuts.
Your old 1911 with parts from several generations is a relic, even if it is not a 1911 with great collector value. There are methods to analyze the frame to recover any worn off stampings or roll marks. But, unless your 1911 is stolen and used for a high level assassination, I doubt any Government agency State or Federal would go through the trouble.
I would not use hot loads if you take it out to the range for some plinking.
 

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I am pretty sure a Colt made even 55 years before GCA 1968 had a serial number, the which it is not legal to remove or alter.
The bogus serial number is not likely to be questioned but that does not make it legal.
 

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To an extent, the gun is legitimized when it's purchased and the FFL records "the" serial number. Everybody can't be an expert on how/when/where guns were numbered at the factory, including LEO, so it's probably unlikely there would be a problem, but I do like to have my papers in order.
 

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The likelihood of a problem may be very low, as others have pointed out, but it is technically a felony to own. I personally wouldn't take ANY risk of a felony conviction, meaning, among other things, that you can never own a gun again, over a piece of junk.
 

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Did you buy it from an individual /and/or go through an FFL?
at a local gun shop / stated in the first sentence
that said I concur as this 1911 is legit being bought from a gun shop with a recorded serial number.
# 8873 recorded what's on the weapon that is what is recorded on the transfer form.
from this point on forward with a bill of sale you can resell it or trade it off . if you are not happy go back to gun store and demand your money back and I bet they would not hesitate one second.

that number regardless how it got there is anybody guess , so that leaves the number to record as such.
you have a bill of sale from FFL /gun shop . it is what it is. Who's to say the BATF didn't do the number stamp at some point and time 10,20,30,40, years ago ?

I've seen FFL's record a 1911 with the maker of the slide name which is wrong but that is the way they saw it , wrote it down. could of been a Ithaca with Rem slide and they would record a Remington gun.

my two cents and I need change back LOL
 

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I've seen FFL's record a 1911 with the maker of the slide name which is wrong but that is the way they saw it , wrote it down. could of been a Ithaca with Rem slide and they would record a Remington gun.
Agree. I have one Mixmaster a1 with Remington Rand slide and Ithaca frame. FFL just recorded as Remington Rand because that's only visible maker's mark on the gun. Even though I know it is a WWII Ithaca, I cannot convince the FFL to record that way because I don't have any reference book with me and he don't bother to check either. I am sure those happen more often than just my incidence. Right or wrong, not all dealers know or care about gun's history when dealing with firearms like that.

I am wondering if any FFL ever recorded manufacturer as "USP" or US ARMY? :LOL:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for all the feedback guys. How common is it to find a firearm like this where the original markings are worn off or removed? Assuming the serial number is correct to the frame, it was made in 1912. So I can understand how a 109 year old piece of steel that potentially went through 2 world wars would not exactly be pristine. But to me it seems really odd that the USP markings are just completely gone while the side of the frame is very smooth, as if someone re-ground that side of it. I’m just not sure why theater would have been done.

But a little background on myself; I bought this because I wanted a little piece of American military history in the form of a fire arm. I have no intention of trying to re-sell this to make a few bucks. I want a gun with a little history behind it that I could also take to the range on occasion to enjoy some target shooting.

I hadn’t even considered the possibility that possessing this firearm could by a crime, simply due to the fact I bought it from a reputable store that has been around for 10 years. That obviously doesn’t mean there can’t be an issue with it, I had just never even thought that it could be.
 

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Kwill is right. The ignorance of your FFL or local police does not make the frame legit. While the chances of anyone in a position of authority knowing or giving a damn are small, if the law is being followed to the letter it is an illegal frame.
 

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Dzach, I hope this doesn't come across as condescending or insulting but you've bought a t*rd and need to return it. Although the frame was once a Colt WWI era frame it has had all the markings planed off. They don't "wear off." It is illegal contraband. The slide has been refinished and the small parts are a mixed bag. It is a liability, not an asset. Now that you know the reality of it the pistol will become less and less a thing of pride and eventually you will reconcile yourself to making a beginner's mistake. Rectify the error before it's too late.
 

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Well ...

Welcome to 1911forum.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I appreciate everyone’s honesty in this thread. It would seem that I made a mistake on this one. Hopefully the shop I purchased this from will be reasonable and accept a return.
 

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The problem is that gun store employees are not experts in authenticating vintage firearms, so they will naturally make the mistake of assuming the gun is legit unless there is a really obvious sign that something is amiss. There are untold thousands of these illegally renumbered guns out there, and they're not merely being hidden in closets but being openly sold on the market. It's up to the buyer to do his/her homework because you can't expect the shop to know what they're selling. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but if you were to show me an old Colt Single Action Army I wouldn't be able to tell you if it had been renumbered because I know nothing about vintage SAAs. Yet I can spot fake or renumbered 1911s all day long because that's where my interest lies. That old man who owns the local pawn shop simply takes guns in, runs the SN through the local police database to ensure it isn't stolen, and from there it gets a price tag and ends up on the shelf.
 
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Not all weapons manufactured before 1968 have serial numbers, read through the GCA of 1968 for more info.
That and 2 bucks will get you a medium hot coffee at Dunkin Donuts
It doesn't matter if guns made before 1968 were made without serial numbers , I have a mossberg 22 made in about 1946 that never had one, this particular receiver left Colt with a serial number applied to it, as did every single Colt made 1911 before 1968 ... excluding those stolen by Colt workers ...

People really need to stop spouting this irrelevant [email protected]$t about serial numbers before 1968 when someone asks about a gun that has obviously had it's original number removed and a bogus one applied, it's completely irresponsible.
 
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