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I spent my evening pulling 90 rounds of Zero’s 185gr jhp 45acp. I loaded them with 4grs of HP-38, according to the Lyman reloading book that wasn’t even the starting load which is 3.5grs. My WC wouldn’t even cycle them. So I checked the Hodgdon website and their starting load for 185gr is 5.0grs. To me that’s a big difference. I guess that will teach me not to load so many rounds before test firing.
 
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So, how was the crimp ring? (looking for anything positive in a pulling session!)

In all seriousness, you had to have missed something... you were 1.5gr under start load.... heck, 3.5gr is .8 less than the start load for a 230 gr. bullet! Did you misread it or do you have a resource that is way off?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My Lyman book says the starting load was 3.5grs so I figured 4grs would be a good start. Crimp ring was good lol.
 

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Wow, I'll have to look at my lyman book- that's way below the other data I saw. I have gotten into the habit of checking at least 3 sources before loading something new. And I usually only load 5, 10 or 15 of anything totally new- 5 for the chrono, 5 for the rest and if I load 15- then 5 freehand for feel.

I know it sucks but it's a lesson that sticks... trust me. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I know better now, but when I’m loading on my 650 it’s hard to stop at 10.
 
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I’ll have to guess your Lyman book has a big error. My Hornady book starting load for 185gr JHP is 6.5gr W231 (HP-38). My Sierra loading book starting load for 185gr JHP is 5.7. Speer starting load for 185 GDHP is 6.6gr. Don’t have any Lyman manuals...guess I’m pretty happy for that.
 

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Fletch is spot on, always check multiple sources.
This is just ANOTHER example of some of the weird data that Lyman throws out.
Was the test fixture they used an 18.5” 1:24 twist 3 groove? Kidding, but they have really thrown some doozies out there......stuff that no one can even buy.
My Lyman is propped at an angle to hold my other books up!
 

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Another thing to check. Lyman leans towards cast lead bullets, and load data for them is typically less than jacketed. Was the data you looked at for a cast 185?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
When I get home I will check it out I don’t think they were cast.
 

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Wow, checked the Lyman 49th and they do list HP-38 at 3.5gr @ 599fps. I guess the velocity should be the giveaway that it wouldn't cycle but man that's crap data. They must have used it in some old revolver or something... and no way the pressure is right either... shows it at 4.4gr of 231 at vastly different velocities but the same pressure on the low end but they show inverse pressure at the top end. Must a fat mistake. I'm just glad you didn't stick one- then kaboom!
596948
 

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Wow, checked the Lyman 49th and they do list HP-38 at 3.5gr @ 599fps. I guess the velocity should be the giveaway that it wouldn't cycle but man that's crap data. They must have used it in some old revolver or something... and no way the pressure is right either... shows it at 4.4gr of 231 at vastly different velocities but the same pressure on the low end but they show inverse pressure at the top end. Must a fat mistake. I'm just glad you didn't stick one- then kaboom! View attachment 596948
That's scary. I wonder what other loads are incorrect. I wonder if they are aware of the discrepancy.
 

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One would think that with that many revisions they would update everything. Hodgedon grabbed the Winchester lineup 15 years ago and 231/HP38 have been identical longer than that.
The current Lyman book is not even ten years old. No excuse for 30 year old data.
 

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That's scary. I wonder what other loads are incorrect. I wonder if they are aware of the discrepancy.
I jumped on a thread a couple years ago in which a listing was so low, I was sure a stuck bullet would be the case.
I argued with someone that the author does not have the right to publish reckless information. Beginners may read it and interpret incorrectly and have a huge problem.
I actually emailed and called them and finally got through when the author was actually there. By means of communication through his secretary (or whomever that was), the example i was using was supposedly the result of a "Test Fixture". That was the end of the conversation, they would not elaborate other than to say the conditions could not be duplicated with my weapon. WTH is that???
Yeah, well, like I said..the book is a book-end...........
 

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I'm disappointed that the Lyman manual seems to be the one where most errors are caught...

It really reinforces the need to consult multiple sources for anything new to you. Sadly many new loaders have a book, not a library. And many have not yet found all the on-line manuals and data.
 

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It is also disappointing that it is a really good book to teach beginners the basics, but then turn around and give some random example of a 142 gr Linotype HBWC bullet. Go ahead, just try to find that one on the shelf at Cabelas. Beginners are not casting from barn find printing presses.
 

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"Test Fixture"

That's the issue. Some manuals, an it seems Lyman is the biggest offender, do NOT use real weapons to develop their data.

They use test fixtures, sort of miniature breach loading cannons, to develop their data. Is some cases, as we're seeing, that means the data, while valid in a test fixture, is completely and totally useless in the real world.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
It’s a good thing I didn’t start at the 3.5grs like they suggested. I will definitely check more resources.
 

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Over the past five decades, I have noticed occasional "anomalies" in several manuals, that's why I always recommend at least THREE sources for comparison.
 

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When you see big differences in starting load data I will double check the o.a.l. that usually clears it up but not this time I agree Lyman really dropped the ball from what I'm reading anyway. But that's just me

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When you guys get some time, perhaps on a cold winter day coming up, sit down with the Lyman book and dig through some of your favorite calibers. Have another manual available and the Hodgedon website pulled up. I say this because that is exactly what I did. You will come across some of the most bizarre contradictions with Hodgedon and Winchester that you have ever seen.
 
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