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"I don't get why everyone likes these eotech's so much...I can't anything with it..."
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Here's the local TV news page. It was in Herkimer, NY and if you look at the video at top left waiting to be played you see the image.

http://www.wktv.com/news/valley-sho...alley-ends-with-suspects-death-198285631.html

I played the video and saw nothing more in it about it. However, it doesn't look photoshopped. Really scary. Almost as scary as the small platoon size group in BDUs and combat gear walking en masse down the street in the village.

A linked article shows that a K9 named Ape was killed by the gunman, Kurt Myer. http://www.wktv.com/news/valley-sho...9-team-member-lost-in-shootout-198195461.html That really sucks.

I appreciate the older guy in the video who says something needs to be done with society that it's not the guns necessarily, but the people.

I'd have rather the photo have been a cranked up shot. The very idea that this officer is out there with a carbine is scary. Pretty good chance it's a carbine that hasn't been sighted in so who knows where those rounds go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Glad you've been able to catch up with the news from March.

Here's Hilton Yam's take on it, if you'd like an educated opinion:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2436
Sensitive much?

I came across the original image on another site. When others wondered it the image was Photoshopped, I dug for more supporting documentation and relayed that.

I added the link about the K9 because that part saddened me. To be brutally honest, I don't care much about the people. The dog I do. Call me whatever you want for that, but I've found over the decades that dogs are more honest and quite amusing when they aren't, and I've had much less disappointments in dogs and their conduct that people as a whole.

I appreciate the link to Yam's article. I mostly agree with except point #2. If you are a cop or a soldier and a firearm is part of your tool kit then even if you aren't a gun guy or gal you should at least know the platform you are carrying and employing. Especially on the streets of your own country.

When people see that security guard in a parking lot with the dingy white shirt, cracked and faded leather belt, and scuffed black tennyrunners and it gives them a bad opinion towards all security personnel. Never mind that there are people working as security officers, both armed and unarmed, who are quite professional, who spend precious dollars out their own pockets to have their uniforms (which they most likely paid for) cleaned and pressed, who possess and maintain professional level gear, which again they paid for, and who train regularly and are just as skilled at "verbal judo" and defusing situations as your average street cop. In fact they often have to deal with angry people who are pissed off and don't want to cooperate, except they are doing it with all the authority of a private citizen in most locales. No force of law or the kind of arrest authority that a LE officer has. Just wits and words. Yet all it takes is for guard Snuffy to look like a slacker piece of crap and those who conduct themselves professionally, many who are former military, are tainted. That applies even more to Law Enforcement personnel.

At least in the Army we were taught to "Lead by Example." We fill these pages on the forum with admonitions and personal expectations of anyone carrying a firearm as a civilian to know how and when to use it and any accessories. We call people who trick out their guns because it's cool and not because it enhances the performance for their particular needs, "Mall Ninjas."

Taxpayers pay for LE at all levels. They are paying for professionals who are supposed to know and perform all aspects of their job at that level. It is repeated here how LE are required to account for every round fired, which might be kind of hard to do if you start firing up with a weapon you have not zeroed with or qualified with as it is currently configured.

In anything I've worked at, from soldier to civilian life I have been required to be a professional, to know the tools of my trade, and to employ them properly. Failure to do so could result in disciplinary action in the military to getting fired in the public sector. Law Enforcement works for the taxpayer, for the public, for the average Joe. Joe many not know a lot about firearms, but he expects his employee with the badge and the gun to at least be sufficiently capable with the gear he carries as to at least not be a threat to the public at large. So when gun guys see stupid stuff by cops relating to firearms it's like your boss seeing you being inept and dangerous on your job. Damned straight we're going to be commenting on it. It's downright scary because we know the implications it says about lack of training, about how packing an unzeroed rifle in a battle caliber into the streets of an American town where there is a good chance you will be using it seriously endangers innocent people, the ones you are supposed to be protecting, in the area.

The thing is that gun folk as a whole tend to back and support the rank and file cop. When we do jump on and take umbrage with the conduct of an officer or officers it is because they have acted in ways that come across as unprofessional and threatening to either life around them, or to the whole idea of a Constitutional Republic. We'll get right behind those who conduct themselves professionally. And, we'll come out strongly against those who make the professionals look like idiots by their actions.

I may not have been or be LE, but at one point I was a security supervisor for a shift at a company that takes large commercial aircraft and turns them into flying palaces for customers that include foreign heads of state. (Airforce One has nothing on these planes.) We ended up in a situation where I and two fo my officers had to do a fast escort out of the building of one of the owners and her secretary because the other owner had gotten so pissed that he "was going to his office to find his gun." We then had to take up locations covering all exits and the other owner's office. We were each in a situation where we might actually have to shoot one of the clients. Suffice to say it was, interesting, for awhile, but the situation was dealt with without any shots fired or any scuffles. So yeah, I know that if you aren't there you may not know all the details. I also know that there is no excuse for such glaring issues as the public display of something that practically screams incompetence at the minimum and a danger to the public and other officers even more.

We currently have two threads up relating to military type weapons, gear, and tactics being used by law enforcement in this country. Many posters showed concern about gear and cool toys taking precedence over training and proper employment, or even the need for such things. Photos like the one posted and images of military clad groups marching down the street as seen in the video only add support to those concerns. Herkimer, NY has a population of 7,703 as of 2012 numbers. Guess they must be hostile residents there to require such a paramilitary presence marching down the street.

Yeah, it's funny in a certain way, as was the photo of the guys at the range with the one wearing a DEA hat sticking one finger in one ear and the barrel of his handgun in the other while another guy was firing. Or the video of the DEA agent who fires off his Glock in a classroom after saying he was the only one there qualified to be handling that gun. Funny. Until you really consider the ramifications.

So sorry Hilton, I don't see any problem with gun savvy employers heaping concern and comments when they see one of their employees in an image that shows a clear and present danger to those around him and raise serious questions about why that employee is clearly not squared away with his tools.

I don't have to be a high speed low drag operator and premium gunsmith to have an educated take on it. As I noted earlier, I pretty much agree with his assessment expect point #2 at the bottom.

I wouldn't single out and trash on the officer alone. First I'd go straight for his chain of command and his training department as Mr. Yam states. Both when I was an NCO in the Army and as a LT in private security, it was the same. If my people do something outstanding they get the credit. If they do something stupid or screw up then that is my responsibility. Though ultimately we are each responsible for our actions. Or at least that's what was written in the FMs.
 

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Glad you've been able to catch up with the news from March.

Here's Hilton Yam's take on it, if you'd like an educated opinion:

http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=2436
The guy who wrote the article in that link makes a big fuss about "... I’ll take one of them on an arrest with me before any 10 of the match winners. Why? When there is no walk through or rehearsal, the targets fight back, and you risk legal or departmental sanction with your every action, it is a whole different game."

Which basically boils down to, he wants people with him that know the LEO job.

And I agree, but... using a firearm is part of your job! Just like he wouldn't want someone there who didn't know how to frisk, or control a suspect while cuffing him, why would he defend the ignorance displayed with firearms?

I've got nothing against Law Enforcement in general, but LEOs who think they can just skate by with the bare minimum of knowledge (in ANY part of their field) are dangerous to themselves and the civilian population.
 
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