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Discussion Starter #1
Seems as if the reports of the M4/M16A2 replacement were in fact true. HK has finally put out information on it's XM8 carbine rifle which will be assembled right here in the good old USA, which bodes well for a civilian version hitting the market in 2005, around the same time the M4 is phased out.



I think it's ugly as hell and with only a 12.5" barrel 5.56 velocities will only produce reliable fragmentation at 100 yards or less. Better combat and and field reliabilty is all that really matters, but for me personally, I'll stick with my M4.

The full tech sheet and comparsion to the M4 can be found here:

http://www.hk-usa.com/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/xm8.html
 

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OH!

Look, it's a carp-bine!
 

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Heh. 12.5" barrel and it looks dumb. What is the point of the entire weapon being covered in streamlined plastic? Or is that what the weapon is made from?

variablebinary said:
I think it's ugly as hell and with only a 12.5" barrel 5.56 velocities will only produce reliable fragmentation at 100 yards or less.
More like 50-60 yards with M193, even less with M855.

PS Does anyone actually believe it can go more than 15000 rounds without cleaning or lubrication without a failure? If you do I have a bridge I want to sell you.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
More XM8 photos

Here are some mock ups of the XM8 which show off some of the more versatile aspects of the rifle. Notice the longer barrel, which leads me to think that the shorter barrel will only be part of the OICW project and the longer barrel will be standard issue.



XM8 is said to be almost completely plastic sorta like the HK USC and SL8 which makes the rifle super resistant to the elements and more durable over longer periods of time. Clocking in at 4 pounds, for sure it's lighter than the M4. I wouldnt discount it completely. Looks aside, Maybe there is something to it, I just wouldnt trade my M4 for one.

One thing I'm curious about is the new 5.56 bullet being introduced to coincide with the XM8 release: "This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons"
 

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The data sheet I saw said 6 lbs. While I dont know if thats loaded or empty, thats right around a superlight AR weight.
 

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The rifle still hasn't been adopted, probably won't be. H&K can say what they want about about it, but its not doing anything the M16 won't.
 

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Would be nice to see these people start acting like they are spending other peoples money. Why cant they just design an upper with a modified mechanically operated gas system and whatever fancy sights and lasers they need built in that can just slap onto an M16/M4 lower? Why do they need all new rifles?
 

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Mus,
Because not enough money is involved. Or maybe enough money is involved but a bunch dimwits will write about how unreliable the M16A2/M16A4/M4 is based on second and third hand accounts, so it would still get bad press. So it will not happen because no big contracts or hoopla is involved. Never mind spending enough money so guys can get training (not equal opportunity/mwr/don't drink/don't smoke dope/blah blah), and go to range every month and get in some real trigger time.

Mindset
Skill
Tactics
Equipment

We were sold on how great MOLLE was compared to ALICE, turns out it gets a great big flush down the toilet. Problem is that MARCORSYSCOM is pretty much a dog and pony show. I doubt the Army system command (NATICK?) is run much differently. You can always find someone to tell you how much the old stuff sucks and there's this new stuff is great. When someone can tell me why the old stuff sucks, then they can find something new to address the problem.
 

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Wow, that is without a doubt the biggest POS that I have ever had the sorry displeasure of laying eyes upon. This reaffirms that H&K is incapable of making anything worthwhile or useful. I cannot believe that any branch of the U.S. military would adopt this crap heap or use it. With any luck it will suffer the same fate as the equally useless H&K SOCOM pistol and collect dust in a gun locker somewhere. I am appalled, nay, I am brought to convulsions of sickness at the sight of this garbage. This thing is an affront to all that is good and sensible in the world and no one in their right mind would favor it over an M4. I would feel more appropriately and adequately armed with a banana.
 

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umm guys...at the risk of getting flamed...how in hell can you judge a gun that you have:
A) never handled
b) never shot
c) never seen in person
d) is only a picture at this time
e) you have no information on other than a spec sheet (since we know THOSE are allways accurate:rolleyes: )
f) have no idea on the cost
g) have no idea on the accuracy
h) have no idea on the reliablility

im sorry its moments like this thread that make me ashamed to be here. you cant judge a book by its cover, especially one that isnt even available yet. ill admit its ugly...but HK are the ones that came out with the MP5 and the PSG1
 

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Grunt said:
The larger problem is that that weapon is an answer in search of a question.
maybe, maybe not. the m16 while a great firearm isnt perfect. how are we to know that this weapon provides something that the m16 platform doesnt? it may be true that the m16 doesnt NEED to be replaced. But wouldnt it make you feel better if the military found something better and then provided it to you, rather than "save a few pennies at the cost of the soldiers life" (which is a huge complaint you see every so often, esp when a soldier dies due to his gear, and its usually the SAME people who complain how much the military spends)? while i would like to see it in a larger caliber, but maybe the changes made are good enough. it makes me feel good that the military is trying to find the best gear for our soldiers, rather than saying, ahh the m16 is good enough...lets save ourselves the time and money and just keep that gun around...
 

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you guys would do well to actually READ what they say about the damn gun b4 you bash it...things such as


As a direct development of the separable OICW (XM29) KE or Kinetic Energy module, the M8 Carbine will share a high degree of common parts and training and maintenance procedures to lessen the required support for the “family” of XM8 weapons. Being developed are four XM8 variants, which include a
baseline carbine, a sharpshooter variant, an automatic rifle variant, and the ultra-compact carbine variant. A unique feature of the XM8 modular weapon system is the ability to easily and quickly reconfigure the weapon from one variant to the other to meet changing mission requirements, to include caliber conversion.

.This modularity includes the exchange of interchangeable assembly groups such as the barrel, handguard, lower receiver, buttstock modules and
sighting system with removable carrying handle. In addition and in parallel, the new XM320 quick detachable single-shot 40mm grenade launcher with
side-opening breech and LSS lightweight 12 gauge shotgun module can be easily added to the XM8 by the user in the field without tools. The unique buttstock system allows the operator exchange buttstocks without tools from the standard collapsible multi-position version, to an optional buttcap for maximum portability or an optional folding or sniper buttstock with adjustable cheekpiece for special applications. Internally the XM8 employs a combat-proven robust rotary locking bolt system that functions and fieldstrips like that used in the current M16 rifle and M4 carbine. However this bolt is powered by a unique gas operating system that employs a user removable gas piston and pusher rod to operate the mechanism. Unlike the current M4/M16 direct gas system with gas tube, the XM8 gas system does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon’s receiver during firing. This greatly increases the reliability of the XM8 while at same time reducing operator cleaning time by as much as 70%. This system also allows the weapon to fire more than 15,000 rounds without lubrication or cleaning in even the worst operational environments. A cold hammer forged barrel will guarantee a minimum of 20,000 rounds service life and ultimate operator safety in the event of an obstructed bore occurrence.
heres the link here
 

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The XM8 has fully ambidextrous operating controls to include a centrally located charging handle that doubles as an ambidextrous forward assist when required, ambidextrous magazine release, bolt catch, safety/selector lever with semi and full automatic modes of fire and release lever for the multiple position collapsible buttstock. The operating controls allow the operator to keep the firing hand on the pistol grip and the weapon in the firing position at all times while the non-firing hand actuates the charging handle and magazine during loading and clearing. Major components of the weapon are produced from high-strength fiber reinforced polymer materials that can be molded in almost any color to include OD green, desert tan, arctic white, urban blue, brown and basic black. Surfaces on the XM8 that interface with the operator are fitted with non-slip materials to increase comfort and operator retention. The XM8 uses 10 or 30-round semi-transparent box magazines and high-reliability 100-round drum magazines for sustained fire applications.

Special integral flush mounted attachment points are located on the handguard and receiver to allow the quick attachment of targeting devices. Unlike MIL-STD-1913 rails, the XM8 attachment points do not add additional weight, bulk and cost to the host weapon, and will accept MIL-STD-1913 adapters to allow for the use of current in-service accessories. The attachment points for the standard multi-function integrated red-dot sight allow multiple mounting positions and insure 100% zero retention even after
the sight is removed and remounted. The battery powered XM8 sight includes the latest technology in a red dot close combat optic, IR laser aimer and laser illuminator with back-up etched reticle with capability exceeding that of the current M68-CCO, AN/PEQ-2 and AN/PAQ-4. This sight will be factory zeroed on the weapon when it is delivered and does not require constant rezeroing in the field like current rail-mounted targeting devices. The XM8 will be fully compatible with future Land Warrior technology and components.

The US XM8 Carbine is being designed at the HK Defense design center in Sterling, Virginia and will be produced and assembled in the United States at the new Heckler & Koch manufacturing plant located in Columbus, Georgia, adjacent to Fort Benning. The unit cost of the XM8 will be less than that of the current M4 Carbine and will guarantee the American war fighter uncompromising performance far exceeding that of current in-service M4 Carbines.
comparo between m4 and new HK
 

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Okay, point taken, theres nothing wrong with always striving for the best equipment for the military, but I would trust my life and my Marines lives to m-16s. If they truly find something better, they should incorporate it in a new upper to go on the existing lowers like Mus said. Of course theres always more to it than any of us know, but I just keep on thinking, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

edited to add: don't get me wrong the specs. sound pretty good, lots of good ideas, but why not put the stuff on a new upper?
 

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Well lets go with what we know.

First off the weapon is unproven, not battle tested, and still in proto type stages.(PER H-K, see their site). We all know of the growing pains that this entails (see history of M16). The M 16/M4 family is proven, battle tested, and has been around for the better part of half a century. Dated design you say? Well then check the first four numbers of the forum you are on!!! ADVANTAGE M Family.

Secondly I doubt that H-K will be able to produce these for anything near what the M4 can be made for. The M4 is made in existing factories with CNC's, lathes, forgings, and rifling stations already set up for production. They have to build a factory, train a work force, and fork out the overhead for equipment. With the overhead alone, the price will be over what a m4 can be produced for in existing facilities. ADVANTAGE M Family.

The accuracy of the M family hasn't really been called into question (Check the results from Camp Perry). It is the easiest rifle in the world to train on, and contrary to popular belief it is as reliable as they come when taken care of as a professional soldier should. Improvement can only be minor at best, and then only on the action. ADVANTAGE PUSH.


Note the magazine release. Can you say AK? A drum that doesn't have enough clearance for your hand to rock it into place?ADVANTAGE Anything ELSE!!!!

The M4 and its kin are as modular as rifles come (pin on A1, A2, A3, A4 and M4 uppers, and others such as the shrike (BELT FED), 50 bmg, 50 BEOWOLF, 458 socom, and 9mm, 10mm, 45 acp, and .22 lr). The "M8" can't do nothing new. ADVANTAGE M family.


I see no advantages for the "M8". We will get nothing better, and H-K will run with our American dollars back to our good friend Germany. Hey, theres a thougth, maybe they want to ensure we will never kick their butts up around their neck ever again:rolleyes: . And in closing, I am glad I am part of this forum. There are knowledgeable people here, that have provided endless hours of conversation, constructive criticism, facts and honest opinions to the unenlightened masses.:cool:
 
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