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Discussion Starter #1
[rant]
also something that has been bothering me as i see these anti series 2 posts spawn every week (pretty much everytime we get a new member they stir the pot it seems). Newhoo...the series 2 safety parts are removable, ok, so if you want the gun, but dont want the safety...REMOVE IT...its not that complicated (im pretty sure a trained monkey could do it). The only logical issue with the series 2 vs series 1 that i can think of is the QC of the early kimbers was much higher than that of the current kimbers. This is an issue but doesnt really reflect on the gun, the bad ones just got weeded out b4 and now they arent.... And the external extractor...if its works whats the problem? Its not like the original internal extractor is bullet proof, and who knows maybe this one will end up being more reliable in the long run (less replacing/retuning of extractors).

I dont see the series 2 as the beggining of the end...i see it as an attempt to make a gun that has a bad image (trust me cocked and locked has a bad image) seem like a safer gun. 99% of the boneheads that buy guns are idiots...the members of this and other forums are exceptions (hell even we have our boneheads). But remember WE ARE NOT THE ENTIRE EXTENT OF THE SHOOTING PUBLIC. There are people out there that try to shoot 9mm ammo out of 40 cal pistols because the ammo fits in the mag, there are people out there who dont know how to drop the slide on a auto...so they think its defective...THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT THE S2 safety and extractor that doesnt need to be tuned are made for. Manufacteres make stuff for the general public...not the gunnuts who actually know what they are doing (like the majority of the people who are complaining on these forums). if you want a gun with everything YOU need and nothing YOU dont, then get a custom...otherwize let the manufacteres make guns for the public [/rant]

PS please dont flame me, or complain about how unreadable the above is, ive been studying maritime history and death all day...
 

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there are people out there who dont know how to drop the slide on a auto...so they think its defective...THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT THE S2 safety and extractor that doesnt need to be tuned are made for.
Good. They can buy them then. Not me.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Shmackey said:
Good. They can buy them then. Not me.
why? what are u reasons? i have yet to hear a GOOD reason not to buy them...
 

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NJKimberSS said:
why? what are u reasons? i have yet to hear a GOOD reason not to buy them...
Good reason is that he doesn't want them. That should be enough.

However, these same people seem to need to rant about it for reasons unknown to me. When they are not attacking me, it's their problem. I personally like external extractors more, don't care a bit about Series 2, actually like the use of polymers on some parts of the gun, but that's my opinion. They can have their opinion ... As long as they are not forcing me to share it, it's fine ...
 

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On removing Series II parts, some say it can't be done for liability reasons. That's a BS excuse to me, but to a lot of people its a valid excuse. And why should I have to remove something that shouldn't be there in the first place? Some argue that it should be there, but there are enough people that disagree to make it questionable at best. There would have been a lot less fuss made about the safety if 1) their guns had it from the beginning and 2) they didn't have problems with it. Any time a design is changed in the middle of production and that change causes problem people are going to be upset, even if the change was done with the best intentions and the problems are eventually ironed out (witness Colts series 80).

The external extractor is a good idea since Kimber has always had a problem tensioning their internals properly. I would prefer an internal but if they can make their guns more reliable with an external, more power to them.
 

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The more it's defended, the more you know it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Series II :rolleyes:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
John Forsyth said:
The more it's defended, the more you know it was a stupid idea in the first place.

Series II :rolleyes:
are you just gonna say that or are u gonna support it...democracy was strongly defended...does that mean IT was a stupid idea in the first place???...:mad:


i think installing the series 2 safety was a VERY smart buisness move for kimber...both from a liability and a sales POV...it just seems like the consumer thinks kimber should take it on the chin to make a small population of buyers happy...i say this because installing the safety allows kimber to sell to a larger population of people. It also helps those people out by giving THE CONSUMER a larger selection of guns. Liability wise, if someone accidentaly shoots themselves, its one extra security blanket in place to protect themselves from a lawsuit.

As far as the external extracter goes, its an intelligent idea because it allows kimber to produce a gun that is more reliable, and easier to make. The external extracter removes the tedious task of tuning the extractor to the gun...if the slides are machined exacly the same each time, the tuning phase of the production is out the window...guns are made quicker and cheaper (not a bad thing...tho most will try and make it seem like it is). given there is nothing wrong with internal extractors...and i like both, there is something to be said about a spring activated extracter (aftec internal, or an external extractor) over a tension extracter (classic 1911 extractor)



i dont want this thread to become a flame war...please only post if your gonna support your responces...
 

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I'll be glad to support my statement.

why? what are u reasons? i have yet to hear a GOOD reason not to buy them...
Part of the reason was in your original statement that I quoted:

there are people out there who dont know how to drop the slide on a auto...so they think its defective...THESE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT THE S2 safety and extractor that doesnt need to be tuned are made for.
Fine; the guns are made for those people. Me, I'm not one of those people. Doesn't that answer the question right there? I know how to drop the slide on my gun, and I know the difference between 9mm and .40. I hate being told what's good for me when people don't know me, and I don't want a 1911 with training wheels. For that matter, it becomes more and more debatable whether it's really a 1911 when more and more changes are made.

And that's another point: if I wanted a .45ACP pistol with an external extractor, and MIM or plastic parts, I'd get a USP.

Could you remove those parts (leaving holes where there should be none)? Yeah, sure, as long as you can deal with the rear sight. But why should I (and where does that end), when I can get a 1911 that was done right in the first place?

Note that none of this has to do with the fact that Kimber clearly buggered up the "safety" feature--at least during the initial runs--and pretended it never happened. Let's pretend the thing actually works as advertised and always has. I don't think I'm an obsessive purist, but how much more does it take, after the external extractors and such, before we're so far from a 1911 that we might as well get that USP? We could get rid of the barrel bushing, slap on a plastic frame, go double-stack... How about double action?

I'm sure there are plenty of reasons I've forgotten, but the basic reason for why I won't buy a Series II is because I don't have to.
 

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I think I'll expand that "because I don't have to" idea.

Why would anyone put up with parts that they'll want to remove? Well, one reason is that the gun, otherwise, is really great and it's worth the trouble. Now, my older Series I Kimber is a great gun, but I think most of us can agree that Kimbers made in 2003 are not up to the standards of Kimbers made in the late 1990s. So why bother with new Kimbers at all?

I can get a gorgeous, blued (actually blued) new-rollmark Colt for $100 less than a basic Series II Kimber; it has all of three MIM parts (two of which go when you get a good trigger job anyway), and actually looks like "a .45." In fact, I did just that, and that Colt accompanies my Series I Kimber nicely.
 

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NJKimberSS said:
The external extracter removes the tedious task of tuning the extractor to the gun...if the slides are machined exacly the same each time, the tuning phase of the production is out the window...guns are made quicker and cheaper (not a bad thing...tho most will try and make it seem like it is).
I think the problem with Kimbers is the "tuning phase" of production was NEVER there. That's why external extractors are a good move for them. While I don't mind tuning the extractor myself, I know that everyone isn't like me and agree that its ridiculous that they can't do it properly at the factory.
 

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NJKimberSS said:
The external extracter removes the tedious task of tuning the extractor to the gun...
The tedious task of tuning a new extractor takes maybe five minutes. Once done properly, it shouldn't need done again for thousands of rounds. Kimber's problem is they don't BUILD pistols anymore, they ASSEMBLE them. Untrained labor can be taught quickly how to drop "Part A" into "Slot B" and repeat the process.

When Kimber broke the 1911 market wide open with the introduction of their Custom Classic, the workmanship and attention to details was beautiful. The Series-II fiasco just happened along the same time Kimber's production quantity surpassed their famous quality.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
there isnt a production gun around that will please everyone and im aware of that...but as far as being close, kimbers IMO fit the bill for me, personally i hate colts...of the 3 i shot, 2 didnt function more than 2/3 of the time, the 3 was ok, but was a ww2 clone with spur hammer and non-beaver tail so i didnt like that AT all (fleshy hands=MAJOR hammer bite)

Thats my point exacly tho...for 99.999% of sociaty that shoots, that is th kind of gun they need...so why bash a maker for trying to make a gun safer/more affordable/easier to make?

Now thsi post isnt intended for those who wont buy them cuz they dont like the sites, or the way the gun looks, or the finish (i prefer stainless neway so the blued issue is moot in my case)...but for those who wont buy because they think that Kimber is going in the wrong direction...or that kimber has "insulted" them by adding another safety feature to the gun...or those who dont like MIM because of a handful of failures (THINK how many guns actually have MIM...sorry MIM haters, its a sound process...as much as you hate to admit it).

I just want some feedback thats all, and i thank you shmacky for you honest feedback...im not out to change minds...just figure out why everyone hates kimber for making a safer gun...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
AZ Husker said:
The tedious task of tuning a new extractor takes maybe five minutes. Once done properly, it shouldn't need done again for thousands of rounds. Kimber's problem is they don't BUILD pistols anymore, they ASSEMBLE them. Untrained labor can be taught quickly how to drop "Part A" into "Slot B" and repeat the process.

When Kimber broke the 1911 market wide open with the introduction of their Custom Classic, the workmanship and attention to details was beautiful. The Series-II fiasco just happened along the same time Kimber's production quantity surpassed their famous quality.
yes but a trained monkey cant do it...thats my point...skilled labor costs more...kimber doenst make guns for that warm and fuzzy feeling that they are helping sociaty be a safer place...they do it for MONEY...and they have as much a right to make money as you or i...and as long as their money making doenst make an unsafe product (WHICH IT HAS NOT DONE...) then i have no beef with them...also going to the external extractor makes it more repeatable/easier to make, so production times (aka more guns made/ more money made) are cut without sacraficing reliability or safety
 

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Why everyone hates Kimber for making a safer gun? Because the Series II makes it safer only in theory, not practice. From everything I've read people are much more likely to have a Series II related failure than they are to have an AD with a non series II gun. Series II is needless complexity that ruins the 1911's beautiful simplicity.

If I was in the market for a Kimber I'd definitely look for a Series I first, but if I couldn't find one for a reasonable price or I wanted a newer model that was Series II only I wouldn't let the safety turn me away. I would put up with it. But do so grudgingly and mumbling about how things were in the old days....
 

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What part of John Forsyth's post was not supported? He made a simple and clearly understandable statement.
NJKimberSS said:
Liability wise, if someone accidentaly shoots themselves, its one extra security blanket in place to protect themselves from a lawsuit.
Liability wise, if someone accidentally shoots themselves, they better do it when they drop their pistol, since that is the only intended purpose of the Series II safety. When's the last time you saw that happen with a 1911? :rolleyes: "Cocked and locked has a bad image"... ??? That statement sounds like it came from the same ignorant people who think firearms are plain evil. The only real way to make firearms safer is through EDJUKASHUN!!! Who the heck went out and bought a Series II Kimber over a pre-Series II because they thought it was "safer"???... geeze louise... mebbe it was those bonehead idiots that represent 99% of firearm purchases... :rolleyes: Now a lot of firearm supporters are not buying the Series II's because they feel they are less safe. Why is this concept difficult to understand?

Let me let you in on a little secret... ALL pre-Series II Kimbers that were drop tested, PASSED. By golly, there are even some 1911's on the CADOJ Approved List that don't implement anything that even remotely resembles the Series II design... like Les Baers... but shhhhh!!!... don't tell them that!!! :eek:

In summary... Series II safeties simply aren't necessary. I couldn't care less about the external extractors except for the fact that they're ugly, ruin the beautiful lines of a 1911 and are not "field friendly".

BTW, if you call me an ass again... :hrm:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
BTW, if you call me an ass again...
A) that sure as HELL better not be a threat
b) threataning somone on a GUN forum is a BAD idea

What part of John Forsyth's post was not supported? He made a simple and clearly understandable statement.
he made a blanket statement, without supporting it. A statement that can be attplied to everything, democracy being the big one that jumped into my min. Equal rights being another.

u
Cocked and locked has a bad image"... ??? That statement sounds like it came from the same ignorant people who think firearms are plain evil.
i didnt say I thought it was, but in the GENERAL PUBLIC it does.

I couldn't care less about the external extractors except for the fact that they're ugly, ruin the beautiful lines of a 1911 and are not "field friendly".
explain...if they are not "feild friendly" why are there so many SUCCESSFUL guns with external extractors?

geeze louise... mebbe it was those bonehead idiots that represent 99% of firearm purchases.
probibly...

Now a lot of firearm supporters are not buying the Series II's because they feel they are less safe.
trust me the numbers of people that DONT buy the guns because they are unsafe is a drop in the ocean compared to the number that DO buy the gun, and the numbers that CAN buy the gun because it passes the regs.

and btw ive sait it once ill say it again...your attitude sucks...you managed to attack and flame me without adding anything to what i intended to be a civilised discussion...congrats...if your not gonna add anything to a conversation without immidiately flipping out and insulting people...dont post.
 

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Well gang, here are some things to consider.

First off, I'm a relatively new enthusiast to shooting. Honestly, I don't mind the "training wheels", just for the fact that I'll assume I'm an idiot and don't want to hurt anyone. Also, I'd really like to understand the workings of my pistol like most of you probably do. If I wanted to know how to take that safety out, how would I ever really learn to do stuff like that if my gun was already "perfect"? I see a lot of what's being argued on here as a matter of preference. Internal/external extractor? To someone like me, I'm apt not to care cause honestly I wouldn't have a clue. I'll care a whole lot if it doesn't work, but apparently it does. See, most people on here are die-hard gun fans just like most of the people I deal with are music fans. You guys are gonna buy the guns you want no matter what and most of them (like the series 1's) are going to be bought aftermarket. The manufacturers don't see that money. So while the current gun owners are pretty much squared away, these companies have to seek out the people on the fringes....the ones they have to really win over in order to get a sale.

With that in mind, most of my fellow musician friends are about 76345987 times more fanatical about the same sort of details with their instruments as you all are with guns. There's just more debate over guns because guitars can't really kill people. It's only natural that when companies change their product customers that already like what they have are going to feel alienated. You're right too, no one competent with a gun likes to have things like redundant safeties forced on them. I'm not too nuts about it myself. Question is, do you already have one that's like you want? If not, can you make it that way? With as many people as there are to satisfy (and all the political hurdles), I think it's great if a gun company can come close to what a lot of people want. But you're right. If someone doesn't like it enough they won't buy it. I picked the gun I did because it sounded like a good investment for the money and because all the research I did indicated the same. So Kimber was smart enough to get my money. Now maybe a few years down the road when I know a lot more, I'll feel like you all do and go looking to buy a series one (or maybe something totally different).

Truth is, there's a lot of gun fans out there with different preferences. It takes all kinds to make all people happy. Some people own guns for nothing other than going to the range and trying to shoot targets better. Due to the nature of my apartment's layout, a gun would be a bigger liability than something for self defense. I'd do better with one of my swords. Kimber also has to accomidate all the different applications for guns. LE ppl might want the extra safety to buffer themselves against political and legal backlash much like Kimber probably wants to. If you don't like the series 2's then it's probably not for you. What's to argue about?

And as far as making or percieving threats, it's really weak-minded in either direction. If you're that quick to get riled up, then I bet people wonder if you should own a gun (and if all the electronic stuff in your house flashes 12:00 all the time). Don't hinder an otherwise positive thing.
 

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Agreed, but it's hardly new to me. Kinda my job.
 
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