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Discussion Starter #1
When reading about this topic, standard operating procedure seems to be "barricade the family in one room, cover the door, call the law and wait." This sounds pretty good in theory, but as I examin my own situation I am forced to deal with merciless reality and call this tactic into question.

I live in a single story home. My kids each have their own room, both of which are on the opposite side of the house as my room. If we are invaded in the middle of the night, in all probablility I'm going to be cut off from my kids. I don't dare barricade myself and call 911 and hope the cavalry arrives in time. I'm not willing to gamble my children on that. It is this father's very strong opinion that I would have to deal with the threat NOW. So if we are invaded I'm thinking I'll have to go looking for the inavders, ascertain the threat and, if such a threat is genuine, overwhelm it with superior force and aggression. I'm thinking a pistol gripped shotgun with a fore end light would work well for this.

The few hours of instruction I received on clearing buildings convinced me it is an excellent way to get killed. I'd rather not do it if possible, but with my kids hanging in the balance I'd rather feed myself to the enemy's guns while taking down the enemy than see my kids die because I failed to act. What are ya'll's thoughts and opinions?
 

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My situation is the same as yours as far as floorplan goes. Setting the dog on em might be a good way to locate the intruder. If you have a dog. Either he'll get shot by the intruder, which will give up his location (if there is only one intruder), or he'll be trying to coax a barking dog from biting him, or he'll get flush into one of the kids rooms. No real easy way to deal with the scenario.

Theo
 

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Guy E. said:
... I'm thinking a pistol gripped shotgun with a fore end light would work well for this....
Why the pistol grip? Why not a full stock? Wouldn't the full stock give you a little more control over it?

Just wondering,
 

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I have a double pistol gripped Mossberg 500 Cruiser that I consider my first line home defense weapon. Even with the 3" shells it ain't that bad. You don't want to shoot a hundred rounds with that config (wrists get achy), but the recoil isn't that bad, and it would be easy to handle in a home intrusion type scenario.

Theo
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, I'm thinking with pistol gripped fore end and rear stock it'll be compact (better for maneuvering in the home) and controllable, while the light will illuminate the target and, since the light will shine what the sights are pointed at, I won't have to shoulder the weapon to shoot it accurately.
 

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I faced the same problem as yourself. I realized that a good alarm system on the house gives me a good advantage over intruders. Once the alarm goes off most likely the BG will split fast because he knows the police are on the way.
A shotgun would be my choice of weapons to clear a house if BG's are inside lurking about. A good Tact light will help as well. Make a plan on clearing the house of BG's in your head. Where to stand, where to move to, where to retreat to if you need to, where the BG's could/would hide.....ect. I think you get the point. If it makes a difference I, myself, have NO prolems what so ever "charging down the guns" when it comes to my kids.
 

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I just looked at www.wilsoncombat.com and they sell a Rem 870 "Border Patrol" shotgun with a 14" barrel. I believe they make rear pistol grips to fit the 870 that can probably be found through Cheaper Than Dirt or Bushmaster. That's 4" shorter than my Cruiser. Would be a pretty sweet set-up.

Theo
 

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There is no doubt that the scattergun has immense power and flexibility in home defense, but... There is a drawback to the shotgun in your application:

overpenetration. You described yourself having to cross the house to reach your kids. Odds are, the BGs will be between you and your kids, then. Which means you'll be firing towards your children.

Before doing this, you've got to see video of what different shotgun loads will do to walls and wood. Marty Hayes made a video doing just that, using plywood and sheetrock in multiple layers. All of the home defense loads penetrated several layers of each.

I think you'd be better with a handgun with home defense loads, maybe even safety rounds. Get a good laser sight (Crimson trace, for example) and light (probably weapon mounted). I'd suggest you'd be better off with a hi-cap weapon, like a sig, glock, or hk usp. You might need the round capacity.

Someone else mentioned to plan where you will go and how, etc., but I will go one step further: you must PRACTICE it. And often, until you don't even think about it. No skill can be considered reliable until it's been drilled to instinct.

Also, Ayoob's been writing articles lately (maybe longer) about body armor. Get a good vest or even a shield. You might consider getting electronic ears to enhance your hearing. All these things will help if you need to search your house. But PRACTICE using them, so you know the routine. Make sure things are placed for maximum reaction speed, etc.

Just my thoughts and analysis. Clearly I'm no expert.
 

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Good points that must be factored in. Figure out which loads penetrate the least. The vest is a good idea as are the ears. You could drill the kids to crawl under their beds at the sound of the alarm, and not come out until you come for them. This would "most likely" shield them from an errant shot.

Theo
 

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There were alot of good points in the above answers. I like a shotgun but without the pistol grip. I have a light on mine and extra light Winchester bird shot loaded for home defense.

I also have a central alarm system that is loud and would confuse the intruders. My children (who are now grown and gone) were trained to hit the floor and go under the beds when this alram went off and stay there till I came in and told them it was all clear. We had drills on this.

But................when it came to my kids my mission was to.....

"Use the means at hand to inflect the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction upon the enemy in the minimum amout of time." Gen. George Patton.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Concerning penetration, I've got an M1 carbine. It occurred to me after my first post I could fit it with a folding stock arangement and use hollowpoints. Still, nothing unleashes the devestation of one trigger pull like a shotgun, and I'm not sure if there is a way to mount a flashlight on an M1. I would want an arrangement where the light is operated by a pressure switch, rather than one I have to switch on and leave on. If I thought my kids were in a direct line of fire, I wouldn't shoot at all, no matter what kind of ammo I had. If they were standing I could go supine. That way my shots would be angled towards the ceiling.
 

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As far as shotgun accessories go, if you prefer the feel/handling of a pistol grip and want the control/accuracy of a full stock, Speedfeed and other companies make pistol grip buttstocks for the Rem 870, Mossy 500, and I think the Win Defender. My 870 wears on, mostly because, being in the Army, I'm more familiar with longarms that have pistol grips.

Surefire makes great forearm lights for the 870 and the Mossberg, available with both grip and toggle switches.

Anyone out there know if frangible 5.56mm/.223 ammo exists, and if so, how it performs on penetrating interior walls?
 

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Whats the floorplan of your house look like? Would it be possible to release a dog and have it clear out to a point from which you would be able to defend access to all the rooms?
 

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12ga 870 with pistolgrip/shoulder stock combination. Good control (really fast to shoulder) and if you have to go opening doors, easy to brace the upper portion if the stock in your armpit, taking most of the stress off of your wrist. Should something surprise you about this time, its also easier to track the gun to the threat quickly. If you want to pay the tax stamp and go through the bs, by all means get a 14 or even 12 inch gun, very easy to maneuver (issued one, still prefer my olyarms .45 subgun) .

There are also carbines , there is a unique approach one of the local gun builder has that involves taking a pistol identified ar-15 receiver , matching a 9mm or 45 upper to the receiver, about a 10 inch barrel, adds a retractable stock then he applies for the "any other weapons" tax stamp $5.00 as opposed to $200.00 (as i recall) for a short barrelled rifle. The difference? Other than how rhe receiver was identified pistol/rifle......None, but a whole lot cheaper. tax wise.

Take some time to roleplay the house, where are the trouble areas, can you put mirrors etc on the walls to allow you see around corners etc, even pots and knick knacks that are shiny will help you illuminate areas with exposure. Remember you know your house best and have the home field advantage, the more you prepare the field , the better your chances of success if you ever have to take the field.


Attached a couple of pics to show what I meant by using the stock to hold the gun while the offhand was occupied, as well as an example of what the local gunbuilder can do (the one pictured is the select fire agency issued one) the one he can built for the $5.00 tax stamp is semi only. Magazines are sourced through oly arms, all are preban and made from converted uzi 41-45 mags, 9mm uses modified sten mags as i recall (mines the .45) NEVER had a failure to feed or fire in any function, accurate as hell out to 50 yards (all the distance i train for with this subgun) .223 from there
 

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Carbine side view , sorry guys dont know how to post multiples in single post, could somebody help me out there?
 

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Here little subby! Here now. That is a sweet lil' .45 number there.

Luvstruck, Theo :p
 

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I'm not at all convinced that this is a firearm hardware problem. The main problem is two-fold.
1- You need warning so as to minimize the likelihood of dealing with intruders inside the house. This means dogs, alarms, reinforced doors and windows, external motion detector lights, etc.
2- You need a plan to implement when the balloon goes up. The details of the plan will vary significantly depending on the layout of the house, the age and maturity of the children, and the anticipated threat.
Firearm choice is pretty far down on the list, and there are advantages and disadvantages to all of them.
Shotgun- good terminal ballistics, depending on ammo and range. Decreased penetration depending on ammo and range (may not be the same ammo). Difficult to handle in close quarters depending on stock configuration. Difficult to shoot well, depending on stock configuration. Less than ideal for hostage rescue shot. Needs to be aimed at room size engagement distances.
Carbine- good terminal ballistics in 223. Decreased penetration in 223, even with standard 55 gr ball. Difficult to handle in close quarters. LOUD, in 223. Needs to be aimed. In pistol calibers, the terminal ballistics and noise decrease, and the penetration increases.
Pistol- easy to handle in close quarters. Needs to be aimed. Inferior terminal ballistics.
 

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coastalcop said:
there is a unique approach one of the local gun builder has that involves taking a pistol identified ar-15 receiver , matching a 9mm or 45 upper to the receiver, about a 10 inch barrel, adds a retractable stock then he applies for the "any other weapons" tax stamp $5.00 as opposed to $200.00 (as i recall) for a short barrelled rifle.

Hey coastalcop,
Do you have a POC for this gunsmith you refer too? I'd like to contact him and find out what he charges for a .45acp based subgun like one you have in your picture.
 
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