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As I work in a shop in a major shopping center here in Florida.
One of my major concerns is over penetration.

If I must use my handgun.
Id like to feel a bit better that my carry round if I hit my subject wont exit and go through the plate glass and into a crowded parking lot.
I realize that's an impossible scenario to give an actual answer to so Id like some opinions please.

What I have been doing in my carry guns is this.
1st two rounds are Liberty Civilian or "Halo" 75grain +Ps the rest are Ranger bonded in my main gun a 45acp.
I feel that Liberty 75 grainers shouldn't exit if a solid hit.
Should I need more then 2 rounds Im in deep doo doo as is.
The Winchester will just have to do its job. Concerns aside.
I use this loading method in my 380,40 and 45.
 

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My pretty well uneducated opinion is; should one have the real need to draw and shoot at a bad guy, over-penetration isn't an overly important concern, not as much as simply hitting the target in the first place. I have seen a 230 grain FMJ go through a pillow, a one inch thick headboard and then be stopped by drywall. All from less than three feet away.
I'm not trying to be flip, but really, the odds of having to shoot someone, or at someone, then over-penetrating and hitting an innocent bystander have to be pretty darn low, right?
So in conclusion, your loading method is somewhat safer, IMO, than using all full power rounds, good to go.
 

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These days, if I'm THAT concerned about the ramifications of missing, I go to the range for a little extra "how not to miss" practice.

A lot of that entails just knowing my own personal limits when I can make the shot and when I can't.
 

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As I work in a shop in a major shopping center here in Florida.
One of my major concerns is over penetration.

If I must use my handgun.
Id like to feel a bit better that my carry round if I hit my subject wont exit and go through the plate glass and into a crowded parking lot.
I realize that's an impossible scenario to give an actual answer to so Id like some opinions please.

What I have been doing in my carry guns is this.
1st two rounds are Liberty Civilian or "Halo" 75grain +Ps the rest are Ranger bonded in my main gun a 45acp.
I feel that Liberty 75 grainers shouldn't exit if a solid hit.
Should I need more then 2 rounds Im in deep doo doo as is.
The Winchester will just have to do its job. Concerns aside.
I use this loading method in my 380,40 and 45.
Over penetration is vastly overrated as a concern. If you miss, it doesn't matter what bullet you're using, and that is where hitting a bystander is an issue. On the bad guy, however, a light bullet may not stop him sooner enough to prevent him from killing you or someone else, even if he ends up dying from the shot.

The FBI even says worrying about over penetration is a waste of time. As others have said, if you have to pull your weapon your job is to shoot until the threat ends, and if you aren't sure of hitting your target you probably shouldn't be shooting in the first place. That pretty much eliminates the worry about bystanders from your end. Of course, you may not have a choice in whether or not to shoot, but if you do, do the best you can.
 

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Rifter said it pretty well.

i'm also not a proponent of mixing up ammo types/weights in the same pistol. Carry what you practice with, so you are absolutely sure that each round has the same POI. My experiences show that this is usually not the case when mixing different ammo types.
 

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i can't stand it anymore

over penetration is BY FAR one of the DUMBEST things people concern themselves with

what gun rag writer with nothing worthwhile to write about to make deadline started such asinine, over thinking idiocy that gets the mindless masses and mall ninjas to even think about such foolishness ??

why don't those morons talk about rule # 4 instead?
Knowing whats BEYOND your target ?



cause the fact of the matter is, you WILL miss with some shots if the target is more than contact distance.

yea, yea, yea, we're all better shooters than all the rank 'n file cops in the country and we won't miss cause we go to the range every month and shoot a hundred rounds... MAYBE shoot a hundred a month

never mind that you haven't shot anything but a stationary paper target at 25ft in the last year and the only stress you have is breaking a nail loading a mag :rolleyes:

rant off
flame suit on

bring it:grumble:


..L.T.A.
 

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In an imperfect World exist imperfect people and imperfect scenarios. Fortunately, most shootings happen in places where there are not a lot of "tourists", e.g., parking lots at night, "Stop & Rob" stores, ATM's, etc. As well, every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it, as they say. That said, I would not choose the unproven Liberty ammo for the first two rds. as if they are ineffective it may be the last thing you know as you're shot down like a dog. There is no such thing as a free lunch here, however you need to perhaps select a modern JHP such as Fed. HST that mushrooms tremendously and has less chance of over penetration. As well, consider the Speer 200 gr. +p Gold Dot which is excellent.

Your issue raises an important point in that few people realize that theoretically they need to ascertain what is behind their target, however if you've never stared down the muzzle of a gun before you can forget that as your brain will be on overload just merely trying to react to something that it has never done before. Unfortunately, there is no way to gauge how someone will react to this beforehand if a neophyte. There are no training classes for Life. Just do the best that you can do. ;)
 

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I don't think the standard pressure 230 gr. Hydra-Shok is known for over penetration.
I'm thinking about 12" of penetration in bare gel would be desirable for a SD load regardless.
What if the bullet has to impact a forearm first?
 

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...What if the bullet has to impact a forearm first?

What if you are attacked by a horde of flying monkeys?
What if a safe fell out of an airplane?
What if Obama was born on Mars?


Quit worrying yourself to death over extraneous factors and just shoot COM until lockback if needed. Anyone shot in the forearm will not be using that arm for the time being. ;)
 

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Rifter said it pretty well.

i'm also not a proponent of mixing up ammo types/weights in the same pistol. Carry what you practice with, so you are absolutely sure that each round has the same POI. My experiences show that this is usually not the case when mixing different ammo types.
+1 i see a big difference in poi at 15 yards between 190 & 230 grains. Granted you most likely will not be dealing with those distances in your scenario. Remember a pistol round is no rifle round. If you were shooting a .308 I'd be more concerned. Try to worry more about hitting your target. Best of luck.
 

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Of all of the criteria associated with terminal wound ballistics, the top two are location (accuracy) and penetration. I teach forensic science/ballistics as well as having shot 45s for 40 years - and I'll take over-penetration any day!!!!
john
 

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jmoore, I'm with you. Overpenetration is definitely preferable to underpentration from a terminal ballistics standpoint. I'm more concerned with misses than overpenetration when it comes to the safety of the public. Reportedly, approx. 75% of the rounds fired in gunfights are misses. That presents a significant risk to the public - much more so than overpenetration.
 

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jmoore, I'm with you. Overpenetration is definitely preferable to underpentration from a terminal ballistics standpoint. I'm more concerned with misses than overpenetration when it comes to the safety of the public. Reportedly, approx. 75% of the rounds fired in gunfights are misses. That presents a significant risk to the public - much more so than overpenetration.
This brings the thread back to the OP's original point. He's not discussing overpenetration of the bad guy, he's discussing overpenetration as it relates to missed shots and the surrounding public.

Those missed shots go somewhere. Across parking lots, into cars, homes, etc.

How about if a shooting occurs in your own home, you miss, and the round overpenetrates the wall, and takes out your child, spouse, etc.? Or, there is a shooting somewhere, and you or your family member become a statistic due to overpenetration. Is anyone going to say that doesn't matter because they don;t care about overpenetration?

Best thing is to research and use a proven defensive round, designed to penetrate to a standard (12") and focus/practice to hit your target every time.

You can only do so much, and you need to do the best that you can in the particular situation. Everything else is beyond your control.
 

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This brings the thread back to the OP's original point. He's not discussing overpenetration of the bad guy, he's discussing overpenetration as it relates to missed shots and the surrounding public.

Those missed shots go somewhere. Across parking lots, into cars, homes, etc.

How about if a shooting occurs in your own home, you miss, and the round overpenetrates the wall, and takes out your child, spouse, etc.? Or, there is a shooting somewhere, and you or your family member become a statistic due to overpenetration. Is anyone going to say that doesn't matter because they don;t care about overpenetration?

Best thing is to research and use a proven defensive round, designed to penetrate to a standard (12") and focus/practice to hit your target every time.

You can only do so much, and you need to do the best that you can in the particular situation. Everything else is beyond your control.

If you're going to wring your hands and worry about shooting through a wall, etc., you won't have to worry about it for long, because you'll be dead. If you're using the best defensive ammo available, penetration is one of the major criteria it is judged by. The chances of somebody else getting hurt if you hit your target are low, and if excessive worry about over penetration keeps you from using the most effective ammo, then the odds of somebody getting hurt go up significantly.

Your best option is to practice regularly so that you can hit your target and stop him. If somebody still gets hurt when you've done everything you can do and have done it right, then its on the a**hole that you had to shoot. If you don't do it that way, then its on you.
 

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Samuri, Firstly, when considering the .45 ACP cartridge, it is not a cartridge that exhibits high penetration when compared to many other handgun cartridges and virtually all rifle cartridges. Its modest power combined with its large diameter projectile results in penetration no where near that of many magnum loads. In the ball configuration it penetrates measurably less than 9mm ball ammo. If you are worried about stray rounds going through drywall, etc., I strongly recommend practicing until you are confident that you can put all your shots in the center of a mansized target at all handgun engagement ranges and plan on using tactics (especially within your home) that minimize the potential for bystanders or family members to be down range of the shooting. This is best done in the home by planning to retreat to a safe room with the entire family in the event of a home invasion. You can then accurately predict the path of any stray rounds and if the location is well chosen you can feel assured that this path is unlikely to be occupied by family members or bystanders. As Rifter mentioned, small arms induce incapacitation by penetrating vital structures in the human body. To ensure that does happen reliably, the ammo chosen must have adequate penetration capability - basically it should adhere to the FBI handgun ammo guidelines. If one still feels that they are uncomfortable with shooting an adversary for what ever reason, they really need to reassess the use of a firearm for protection. Some people feel that the use of an edged weapon or a blunt force instrument are best defensive weapons for them because they have serious issue with the use of firearms. I certainly do not adhere to that line of thought but I would not judge them either. One must do what they feel is best for them in their personal situation.
 

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I prefer the stagger method myself...

1st round 230FMJ, 2nd round 230FMJ, repeat this staggering method...

I like to error on the side of caution that will yield the most reliable feed of the next round. I certainly am concerned and want to limit collateral damage, but reliable self defense is first for me.

However, to each his own...
 

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If you're going to wring your hands and worry about shooting through a wall, etc., you won't have to worry about it for long, because you'll be dead. If you're using the best defensive ammo available, penetration is one of the major criteria it is judged by. The chances of somebody else getting hurt if you hit your target are low, and if excessive worry about over penetration keeps you from using the most effective ammo, then the odds of somebody getting hurt go up significantly.

Your best option is to practice regularly so that you can hit your target and stop him. If somebody still gets hurt when you've done everything you can do and have done it right, then its on the a**hole that you had to shoot. If you don't do it that way, then its on you.
rickgman said:
Samuri, Firstly, when considering the .45 ACP cartridge, it is not a cartridge that exhibits high penetration when compared to many other handgun cartridges and virtually all rifle cartridges. Its modest power combined with its large diameter projectile results in penetration no where near that of many magnum loads. In the ball configuration it penetrates measurably less than 9mm ball ammo. If you are worried about stray rounds going through drywall, etc., I strongly recommend practicing until you are confident that you can put all your shots in the center of a mansized target at all handgun engagement ranges and plan on using tactics (especially within your home) that minimize the potential for bystanders or family members to be down range of the shooting. This is best done in the home by planning to retreat to a safe room with the entire family in the event of a home invasion. You can then accurately predict the path of any stray rounds and if the location is well chosen you can feel assured that this path is unlikely to be occupied by family members or bystanders. As Rifter mentioned, small arms induce incapacitation by penetrating vital structures in the human body. To ensure that does happen reliably, the ammo chosen must have adequate penetration capability - basically it should adhere to the FBI handgun ammo guidelines. If one still feels that they are uncomfortable with shooting an adversary for what ever reason, they really need to reassess the use of a firearm for protection. Some people feel that the use of an edged weapon or a blunt force instrument are best defensive weapons for them because they have serious issue with the use of firearms. I certainly do not adhere to that line of thought but I would not judge them either. One must do what they feel is best for them in their personal situation.
Apparently, you guys missed my point, which is easy to do since this is the internet and tones and inflections can't be transmitted via text.

I never said I wouldn't be willing to shoot, my point was that, IMHO, there should be concern for over penetration. A concern does not equal don't shoot.

Multiple statements were made that, in the way I interpreted them, the individuals could care less about any penetration issues, as long as they got the bad guy. To me, this is a lack of concern for your actions, and one of the four major principles of shooting, "Know your target and beyond".

Seems like you both forgot to read my entire post, which included the following:
Samurai 1911 said:
Best thing is to research and use a proven defensive round, designed to penetrate to a standard (12") and focus/practice to hit your target every time.

You can only do so much, and you need to do the best that you can in the particular situation. Everything else is beyond your control.
In other words, I agree with what you both said
 

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Samurai 1911, I guess I don't understand exactly how much actual concern you have regarding overpenetration based on your messages. My pesonal feeling is that if you are using a pistol chambered for the .45 ACP cartridge, you shouldn't concern yourself any further. It's not really a high penetration cartridge even in its military form. In most cases (but not all), it penetrates sufficiently to yield the desired penetration as defined by the FBI (12" minimum & 18" desireable in standard ballistic gelatin) but it doesn't go much beyond that level of performance. If you can find the old WWII version (not the KW version) of the Army training film "Infantry Weapons and their Effects", you can see the penetration performance of the .45 ACP cartridge vs. other military cartridges. Even the much maligned cal .30 carbine cartridge seriously outperforms the .45 ACP cartridge in terms of penetration.
 

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Long ago and far away I fired some GI ball indoors. I was a little bemused to find the bullets were nothing like the Energizer bunny. Doubtless GI ball will do what's claimed in pine boards or Box of Truth but I worry less than I perhaps once did about over penetration and more about under penetration of what might be concealment and might be cover.

For penetrating plate glass there are some oddities with glass rated for public places. It wasn't my shot but I've seem .355-357 bore hollowpoints blow up on window glass shed the jacket and spew the core like dustshot without even penetrating cardboard posters inside the window.

Once upon a time when I carried a Model 58 I did load the lighter factory load - which despite being the lighter of the 2 factory loads was IMHO up to the job - up first with some full magnum to follow but the full magnum was more with cars and cover in mind. I eventually dropped that notion and carried 170 grain in the revolver for a while then moved to a 1911.

Unless there is a real need for something like Glasers for special circumstances I find I worry more about under penetration - with a handgun - with an appropriate rifle I am reminded of Bob Hagel's comment when he was trying to recover a solid from a .460 Weatherby in some sort of bullet trap. He wasn't sure what might stop it as I recall.
 

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The Internet Hostage Rescue Team operates off of what if.

Gun fighters operate off of good situational awareness, experience with their firearm, and confidence.

I think your real concern is hitting someone you do not intend to shoot. Basic Firearm safety rule #4 is "Know your target and beyond".

Take a class from a member of a Tier One SOCOM unit. They are far and above the premiere modern day gun fighters. To get you started, go to viking tactics dot com and buy SGM Kyle Lamb's Pistol DVD's. (I make no money from these, FYI)

And then shoot, a lot. Some folks do pushups if they miss or burpees or some other "punishment" for missing. Granted, many ranges do not allow for such things, so maybe you can put a dollar in a jar for every miss. If you cannot afford to shoot hundreds of rounds a week, dry fire and practice your presentations and clearing malfunctions. You will learn all of this in your class.

We fear most that which we least understand. Getting training will help you with that.

Stacking different ammo in your magazine is like buying life insurance for Fridays.
 
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