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Discussion Starter #1
Does any one else practice point shooting? About 1/2 of my shooting is point shooting out to about 20 yards. I do not mean hip shooting but shoot with arm extended and may get a flash picture of front sight. I have tried hip shooting and it does not work for me. For accurate shooting, sighted is the only way to go but point shooting can work for me out to about 20 yards. What are your thoughts?

Bill :confused:
 

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I do...
But I taught myself how by accident...I thought I was practicing my draw and fire...then I noticed I was only glancing at the front sight, yet I was still hitting COM.

It only works for the first shot (for me), my double taps are not so good (but I'm still working on them)...but my first shot is fast and accurate to within 6 inches, and a point shot every time.

EDIT: I have'nt tried it past 15 yards.
 
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sheepman said:
Does any one else practice point shooting? About 1/2 of my shooting is point shooting out to about 20 yards. I do not mean hip shooting but shoot with arm extended and may get a flash picture of front sight. I have tried hip shooting and it does not work for me. For accurate shooting, sighted is the only way to go but point shooting can work for me out to about 20 yards. What are your thoughts?

Bill :confused:
If you are seeing the sight, it ain't point shooting.
 

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MarkW said:
If you are seeing the sight, it ain't point shooting.
Now this could be the topic of endless debate. I truly dont know what the real definition of 'point shooting' is. Some will say it's any shooting done with out obtaining a perfect sight picture. Some will say it's shooting without any visual index ( hip shooting? ). My shooting out to 15 or so yards is done with target focus, but I look through the sights. I see the sights, but they are not in focus. Is that point shooting? Don't know, and not sure if I care what the lable is.

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say on this. Perhaps we can come up with some definitions we can agree on.
 

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We did an IDPA stage once where the target was 7 yards away. You made ready, holstered, then they dropped a paper sack on your head. Then you had to do a Bill drill (draw, shoot 6 fast). Some interesting scores that day.

I nominate that as a good definition of "point shooting".
 

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Point shooting is just another tool for the box. It is a tool that should be seamlessly integrated with your sighted fire tools.

If we are looking for self defense related point shooting, we are talking distances from bad breath out to about seven yards. Out past seven yards to should have the time and ability to get to the sights. If we are just point shooting for fun, pushing past seven yards is ok, but we need to keep the context of the training in mind.

For self defense training point shooting is really for inside of seven yards and for use with dynamic movement.

There are many beliefs on what the definition of point shooting is. There is the historical defintion and there is the definitions put down by people that do whatever they can to not use the "P" word. I have no problem using the "P" word and tend to go by the historical definition of point shooting, which is (and it does not matter if anyone disagrees with this)

"Point Shooting is any shooting where the visual focus is on the targeted area (or threat) and not on the gun."

By drawing the line at the "visual focus" there leads to a very clear distinction between the two forms of shooting. Here is how it is broken down in my course. The break down starts with the maximum visual input on the gun, down to the point where there is none at all.

Sighted fire

Hard Focus on the top of the front sight
Hard focus on the front sight
Solid sight picture
Flash sight picture
Shooting out of the notch
Front sight only with focus on the gun

Point shooting

"Type two focus" Focus on the threat with a fuzzy sight picture
Front sight only with focus on the threat
Aligning down the top of the slide
Metal and meat (silhoutte of the gun)
Below line of sight with peripheral vision of the gun

The last one works all the way down to "half hip." If you can see your gun in your peripheral vision your brain will use that information to help facilitate your hand/eye coordination.....whether you want it to or not. That is what the brain, eyes, and body does.

There is also body indexed firing position such as "close contact.'

There is also muscle memory techniques such as Quick Fire which relies on punching/driving the gun to the targeted area.

There will be many that disagree with this, but that is cool. They can teach the way that they want to and I will teach the way that I want to. :)
 

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banzai7 said:
I truly dont know what the real definition of 'point shooting' is.
Extend your arms towards the target. Look at the target, not the gun, fire. I practice it every time I go to the range. If you have time for sight acquisition, great. If not, you're still good....
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for comments

I know there are different opinions as to what is point shooting. At close range (10 yards or less) I have the gun below eye level, out to about 20 yards I bring it up to eye level but not sighted and may only see a flash of front sight. When I started shooting trap it took a long time to learn to shoot with both eyes open and not to aim like a rifle or handgun. Some of the things learned with a shotgun seams to work with a handgun (for me any way) and yes I know if you want to shoot accurately you need to aim. Hip shooting only works for me at card table range. Whether what I do is point shooting or not is up for interpretation. I have heard point shooting condemned by a lot of shooters and wanted to know if I was the only one who found it useful. By the way Merry Xmas to all

Bill :)
 

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I have heard point shooting condemned by a lot of shooters and wanted to know if I was the only one who found it useful. By the way Merry Xmas to all
I have been in force on force (FOF) courses with over one hundred well trained indivuals. Of all of these people, I never met one that did not find out, not only the usefullness, but the absolute necessity of a seamless integration of sighted fire and quality point shooting skills.

Any doubters need to take their skill sets into properly designed FOF training. The necessity becomes very clear very quickly. At least that is what I have seen 100% of the time.

If you would like to find out why threat focused skills are so important do the "Tueller Drill Suarez International style." Get an Airsoft gun and partner with a rubber club. Have him attack you at a full run from seven yards, then six yards, then five yards, then four yards, and then three yards. If you do not get off of the line of attack and nail him with fast and accurate shots, he gets to whack you upside the head.

You will see very quickly the need for threat focused skill sets.

"Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything."

I have conversed with a bunch of guys back from Iraq. One thing is clear, they are taught sighted fire in training.....but many (not all) are gravitating towards threat focused shooting while kicking in doors.

Why? Because that is what the situation dictates. Low light, the need to ID innocents, the need for a field of vision, and the need to engage as quickly as humanly possible. These factors are bringing back combat proven skill sets from WWII. The guys with the door kicking experience are passing these skills to the guys that are new in country.

Combat has a way of separating the wheat from the chaffe.

Force on force is as closed to combat as many of us will ever get....but it does a fine job also of separating the wheat from the chaffe.
 

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My intention is to draw as I move, rotate the gun towards the attacker as soon as it clears leather, fire a round, then as I raise the gun to the level for sighting, get off one or two more rounds. Then when sighting, continue firing 'til the threat is neutralized. Even if your first few shots don't hit him/her, they will very likely csuse him to keep his hesd down or ruin his aim.
 

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Yep.......still practice point shooting.....but after a couple of recent classes (and a very serious discussion with a security team leader who worked in the Mid East) I practice close quarter rapid sighted shooting even more now.

Good luck and great shooting to you. :rock:
 

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got back from Gunsite a couple months ago. But still ringing in my ears is the mantra

"Front sight....press. Front sight....press."

After seeing people shoot. Shooting some myself, it became pretty apparent that the best way to get fast hits(not even necessarily accurate hits, in the times they were making us work with) was to focus on that front sight and press the trigger.

part of the qualification drills was two rounds on the middle of the taregt, from the draw at five yards, in 1.5 seconds. Same time for a single head shot at three yards.

It made you nervous. The target turned away after being exposed for 1.5 seconds. People started watching that target. and then they started missing. they started missing the target at 3 and 5 yards.

the speed aspect ruined us, but mercifully we did these school drills the day before we had to do them for score, and we all pretty much learned a simple secret. If you want to hit the target fast, you watch the front sight. You see that sight over the target, the focus on the sight, and you press the trigger. Just like regular shooting only faster.

It didn't take much to convince me, I had been a Cooper disciple from birth. It did wonders for a lot of novice shooters.

Everybody in my class came away knowing the secret to fast shooting, slow shooting, and distance shooting.

"Front sight.....Press!"
 

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Here we go again,
if you do a search you'll find thios was covered at length,not to long ago.

I do not point shoot, I've never been taught it, officially at least, and the once or twice I was exposed to it, I didn't buy.

In most instances, you are still referencing the gun, so just use the sights, instead of playing visual gymnastics.

Have ONE system that will work for every range. Not 1/2 dozen or more, that your have to figure out which to use.

FoF, I've been involved in plenty of FOF training, some of it, you were almost forced to point shoot, due to the PPE worn, guess what, no hits. Force your face down on the stock, find your sites, and guess what, rounds go where the sites go.

Far to many people, far more experianced, and knowledgable, have already laid it out.

Just recently, I was talking to some co-workers, 3 guys who had previously worked on 2 different SWAT teams. All had stories of surviving, because the other guy point shot, all had stories of surviving, because they used their sites.

Including an officer that missed at 3-5 yard with 4 rounds from a shotgun, because he point shot.

As far as combat, as I've said many a survivor of combat, both military and LE, some from the most elite organization in the US Military, don't use or teach point shooting. Combat does seperate the wheat from the chaff, interesting how some are not point shooting.
CQB is about PRESICION shooting, not about speed shooting.

And as far as firing rounds as soon as your clear the holster, "even if your first few shots don't hit him/her",...... I'd seriously re-think that TTP.
You need to ba able to account for EVERY round fired.
Bob
 

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if you practice drawing and shooting enough it shouldnt be an issue...

your looking at your target, you draw ( or already have the pistol in low ready), if you practice, when the gun comes up to fire your sights should fall right in line with where you looking anyway...

shooting with a bag over your head is pointless to me, cause im not shooting at something i cant see AND identify. ( i understand it may teach the importance of being able to see though)

what i do, for practice, is pick a target ( unloaded dry fire practice) close my eyes, bring the gun to ready position and open my eyes. the sights should be pretty damn close to being lined up anyway. this just teaches your muscle memory to get the gun in the right spot in a hurry..

russel
SDMF
 

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The problem, as I see it, with that, is its based on a sorta muscle memory, and, everything being the same as it is on the flat range, and thats not gonna happen.

Will your muscles be the same, loaded with adrenalin, tired from humping a ruck for 20 klicks, standing in a stack for an hour, carrying groceries, sore from a cold, pulled muscle, etc etc.?

Will you always be standing square to the target? On flat ground? Shooting level? What if you have to kneel to change the angle of your shot?

What you describe in your last paragraph, is nothing more then finding your natural point of aim, we did it all the time on the HS rifle team.
What I find it helps with, is getting you into a consistent body position in relation to your target, or sector.
So, say your running into a firing position, you'll know what a good position feels like, but I wouldn't trust it.
Most likely you won't have that oppurtunity.

Propper trigger manipulation, first and formost, followed by propper sight picture, will get you the hits you need, where you need them.

Bob
 

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What you describe in your last paragraph, is nothing more then finding your natural point of aim, we did it all the time on the HS rifle team.
What I find it helps with, is getting you into a consistent body position in relation to your target, or sector.
So, say your running into a firing position, you'll know what a good position feels like, but I wouldn't trust it.
Most likely you won't have that oppurtunity.
i agree, finding the natural point of aim describes that much better.

what i was getting at, is in doing that, your sights are much closer to being where you need them, but you should always put the sight on the target. you can train your self to get your gun up between you and the target and get the sights pretty close, so it doesnt take as long to aim. i do believe in using the front sight ( unless its a hip shot.. lol )

russel
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higgy1911 said:
got back from Gunsite a couple months ago. But still ringing in my ears is the mantra

"Front sight....press. Front sight....press."

After seeing people shoot. Shooting some myself, it became pretty apparent that the best way to get fast hits(not even necessarily accurate hits, in the times they were making us work with) was to focus on that front sight and press the trigger.

part of the qualification drills was two rounds on the middle of the taregt, from the draw at five yards, in 1.5 seconds. Same time for a single head shot at three yards.

It made you nervous. The target turned away after being exposed for 1.5 seconds. People started watching that target. and then they started missing. they started missing the target at 3 and 5 yards.

the speed aspect ruined us, but mercifully we did these school drills the day before we had to do them for score, and we all pretty much learned a simple secret. If you want to hit the target fast, you watch the front sight. You see that sight over the target, the focus on the sight, and you press the trigger. Just like regular shooting only faster.

It didn't take much to convince me, I had been a Cooper disciple from birth. It did wonders for a lot of novice shooters.

Everybody in my class came away knowing the secret to fast shooting, slow shooting, and distance shooting.

"Front sight.....Press!"
I would be very careful about putting too much stock into that mantra. I live and breathed that mantra for four years in over forty courses. The eight guys that I trained with, on a regular basis, also had anywhere from twenty to fifty Modern Technique courses. Some of these guys were even instructors at one of the big "gun schools." When we took all of that substantial training into FOF and we found that it was virtually useless. Of the eight "highly trained" people that took the FOF course with me, not one believes in the mantra any longer. We all found out that we needed to be much more well rounded and versatile.

Here is the advice that I give to all of the people that worship the mantra. "Go out and learn the fundamentals. As soon as you have safety down, the draw stroke down, and you can keep the gun running and hitting……you need to take these basics into professionally run FOF. Here is where you find out that the fundamentals are nowhere near good enough."

Take the Tueller drill (Suarez style) test that I posted above and report back. Until you have been under the pressure of taking a good smack to the side of your head, you are speaking from an untested point of view. I have never seen anyone run the test and stick with the mantra.

The mantra that makes sense was written by Brian Enos, one of the best shooters in the world at the time....."See what you need to see." You do not have to see the front sight to get solid hits. This is a fact that a number of instructors prove with every course and every student that they teach.

This all comes down to having an open mind and putting in the work. It is the open mind that is the biggest problem. Once you see that you can not always get to the sights, the need for the skills become apparent. Once it is apparent, the basics of point shooting is very easy to learn and you will have the proof of the effectiveness in a very short time. This level can be reached by reading and applying. But once again, if the open mind is not there then you will never have the ability to know what you are missing or what you are talking about.

Remember, I am a highly trained Modern Techniques guy, I do everything that you do. Getting to my sights is my default. But I can also do plenty of things that you have no understanding of. The reason why I have that understanding is because a whole bunch of FOF proved to me (and all of my training partners) that the mantra only cover a small part of the fight continuum.
 
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