[Greg1911]

My idea is that if you are almost hitting people and kids in school buses shoot the idiot they should have pulled up in a cruiser and opened fire with a 12ga and ended it right there.

 

[dsk]

Originally posted by python1340:
It seemed like that officer had a point blank head shot on the driver of that lumber truck on fire, yet he still missed. I think that officer should have easily hit him.

Alas, it's not always as easy as in the movies. Even a trained individual can throw a shot wild if under stress and if things around them are happening real fast.


------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://usgi1911.tripod.com

 

[Shinglekill]

What lumber truck on fire?

I havn't heard yet.

Never mind, I found it.

[This message has been edited by Shinglekill (edited 11-08-2001).]

 

[shane45-1911]

Is this the Canadian (Toronto) incident you refer to?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No, this is the Dallas incident that happened all around the southern boundary of Dallas. pyth1340, did you see the officer fire the shot? Are you telling me that you could have made the same shot very easily?

For the record, the officer did not miss the suspect at all and actually wounded him in the face according to the news of last evening. Also, the lumbar truck was driving away from the officer with the shotgun, who by the way was chasing the truck on foot. I am guessing from the footage, the officer covered a goodly distance, probably 50 yards or so, and then tried running with the shotgun shouldered so as to make an aimed shot. The officer seemed to shoot when he realized that foot power was no longer overtaking truck power.

Have you ever tried shooting after running? We do not do running and shooting drills but have done run and stop to shoot drills and to be quite honest, the officer did a pretty good job of hitting where he was aiming. It is amazing what surging blood and adrenaline can do to one's aim when one is just standing still and shooting at a non-moving target. Had the officer been standing still, cooly, and the truck not moving, then sure, I would have been bothered that the shot was not better, but given that he shot while running with a shouldered shotgun and managed to hit the suspect in the head, I give him a big thumbs up!

Do also notice if you see the video again that as the suspect was moving away, the angle of the officer's shot was closing off, becoming decidedly more acute with distance.

As for driving up next to the speeding truck and shooting the driver, well, that is not a real good thing to do in most cases given that they would have no way of stopping the truck once the driver was dead. That is why they don't shoot the driver's of vehicles moving at speed.

 

[SamColtFan]

This thing got way out of hand. At one point early in the pursuit, the trucker made a sharp right turn onto a side road and slowed almost to a stop with a police cruiser off to the right side. There was a perfect opportunity to block the path of the truck and apprehend or shoot the suspect and put this to a quick end. Not impressed with how many people had their lives put at risk because of politically correct, overly sensitive police work.
Regards,
Sam

[This message has been edited by SamColtFan (edited 11-08-2001).]

 

[dsk]

Well, the same cops who get criticized for not doing more also get put to the fire when they go too far. They can't win.

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://usgi1911.tripod.com

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by Greg1911:
My idea is that if you are almost hitting people and kids in school buses shoot the idiot they should have pulled up in a cruiser and opened fire with a 12ga and ended it right there.

Hopefully you have had time to consider what you just said. The police kill the driver then they have 100,000 pounds of out of control truck and load going who knows where. Shooting the driver of a vehicle is not always the smart thing to do.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I do apologize for going off on python1340 like I did. I meant no challenge to his skills, but I really do think the cop did a good job of shooting given the circumstances.

As SamColtFan noted, there were opportunities to block the truck, only would you want to try to place your cruiser in front of a vehicle that size? Sure, it might stop it, but would that be before or after it smashed your cruiser? Would you be able to get out in time? The turn he noted plus the point where the officer was able to run up toward the cab were both opportunities that were missed in placing assets in the way of the truck, no doubt.

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by SamColtFan:
This thing got way out of hand. At one point early in the pursuit, the trucker made a sharp right turn onto a side road and slowed almost to a stop with a police cruiser off to the right side. There was a perfect opportunity to block the path of the truck and apprehend or shoot the suspect and put this to a quick end. Not impressed with how many people had their lives put at risk because of politically correct, overly sensitive police work.
Regards,
Sam

Perhaps you should consider that it has nothing to do with "politically correct, overly sensitive police work." Maybe it has everything to do with what the public demands. Maybe it has everything to due with the fact that the officer’s freedom, financial security, and the welfare of his own family not yours is on the line. Maybe it has everything to do with it ain't easy for a normal human to kill another human EVEN if you have done it before. Maybe it has every damn thing to do with it's a whole hell of a lot easier to make judgment calls from the jury box, judicial bench, or recliner in front of the TV.

 

[Wit]

Just FYI, the local CBS revealed the officer's shot hit the truck side view mirror. I think that's how the driver got wounded in the face (from the shattered object.)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Regardless of how the driver got wounded, the shot was hardly point blank head shot. I just saw the video again as well and all things considered, I still think the officer did fine. My guess is that he shot from about 8 yards, on the run.

At what range will they let us practice that sort of shooting, even if it is on a stationary target? I am guessing that if running with scissors is considered bad, then running with a loaded shotgun that you are trying to shoot is just right out of the question to try.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, I was thinking...the guy in the mirror could have easily been identified as the suspect - probably looked just like him too.

 

[SamColtFan]

It looks like I hit a nerve. I still say, there was one glaring opportunity as noted above where it appeared there was sufficient time for one patrol car to block the rig and for the officer to get out of the vehicle to apprehend or shoot the driver if the officer had no other option. I think the public was put in harms way far too long on this incident. Just my opinion guys. Nothing personal intended. I also know it's a no win situation.
Regards,
Sam

 

[LAK]

Didn't see any of the footage, and have only heard a few details. But anyone with the right hardware could have destroyed the radiator from the front (if that was possible at any time) - which at some stage would have caused the powerplant to destruct.

I have seen other such incidents; and to my mind, all major police depts ought to have shotgun slugs available for those issued to patrol units that will wreck an engine block. At the very least something that will definately put paid to any heavy tractor radiator. The "wheel spiking" operations don't seem to be a very sure thing; or the "driver" simply sees what is coming and evades them.

But I agree with Patrick that just shooting the idiot might not be a good idea. It could have resulted in the death of a bystander - and then probably a big fat lawsuit.

 

[D. GUESS]

Originally posted by SamColtFan:
I still say, there was one glaring opportunity as noted above where it appeared there was sufficient time for one patrol car to block the rig and for the officer....
Sam

Yeah, I also see that about 5-10 times during any episode of "Scarriest Police videos".

As far as a politically correct chase, they were trying to kill the guy for Pete's sake. How much more anti-politically correct can you get. Airstrike?

I also propose that law enforcement implement a full sprint, moving target course of fire for their shotgun training.

 

[Patrickl]

Originally posted by D. GUESS:


I also propose that law enforcement implement a full sprint, moving target course of fire for their shotgun training.

You might also propose that departments take the handcuffs off of their officers by allowing them to shoot a vehilces. Most agencies have VERY strict policies against shooting at vehicles.

 

[EnfieldVonMauser]

I drive for a living. Actually I drive a tractor just like the one in the chase, an International 9200 day cab (at first I thought it was one of ours). And if they had shot the driver, the incredible drag from the trailer would have stopped it VERY quickly. I watched it live, and couldn't believe the tractor had the power to pull that disabled trailer that far that fast. In fact that could have very well been what stopped it in the end, the computer shutting down the engine because of overheating, or he might have fried the transmission. Actually, a bullet just about anywhere under the hood would trigger a shutdown before too long. One in the radiator (3' square target) would have ended it quickly too.


------------------

"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice Doggie' until you can find a rock"

 

[Ken Neal]

When this incident first started it was a car (truck) jacking. Until the decesion was made from some one not at the scene that lives really were in danger the officers could not use deadly force to recover stolen property. Once it was determined that deadly force was called for you still have the disadvantage of a moving target. Add to the mix the use of a handgun to stop a vehicle of any size and the odds change some more and not in the favor of the officers. There are a considerable number of vaiables that must be considered in an instant before that shot is fired. Any one ever consider using a car as a roadblock for one of these rigs had best think again, there is a lot of inertia at work there. There was a lot to deal with in this incident. The only thing I can see, based on what really limited information the media gave out, was the amount of time it took to get the shoot clearence, but then I dont have all the infomation either. The Dallas officers did good, and made the best of bad situation turn out good.

------------------
No man is above the law and no man is below it. Nor do we ask any mans permission when we require him to obey it.