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Interesting project, keep the reports coming.
Was having that sight block printed in metal expensive?

Don't worry about the nomenclature, even Colt doesn't get it right any more.

I think the PO/RP/RIA being all one piece is closer to 1911 design than the "modular" Tripp-McCormick. Yes, those were the originators.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
The Sight Block was about $75, xometry is the company I used, but there is a dozen if not more you can find on internet.

Of course they are only making what you provide to them in CAD file. So you will have to create a CAD file of what you want. For the Rails, I used the drawings for the 1911 and the M1913 Mil-Spec, plus a few guesses from photos of the M45A1 and measurements off the frame I had. For the optics cap plate, my slides are cut for the Trijicon RMR adapter plate. The plate comes with a drawing with measurements on the instruction sheet, plus a few measurements off the slide and 1911 drawings I was able to make a CAD drawing off these. I used FreeCAD 0.19, watched a few tutorials off youtube to learn how to do it. If you are computer inclined, that is all it takes, I've never touched CAD before in my life, until I started this project.

They usually have a minimal price for order, I've had to order two just to get above the min price. I'm also working on a M45A1 clone, so ordering two is no problem, I use them of both projects I'm working on.

For my M45A1 clone project the optics cap plate has the Novak Cut for a real NOVAK sight that I got. It's taking forever to file the cut wider to fit the real Novak sight. Considering how short of time I will have the caps on these pistols, for pictures only probably, just to mount a Red Dot, its probably not worth it.

The Rail is 3d printed also. They are the Metal Binder Jet process, which is the cheapest and the least accurate also coming out with the striations of the layering printing process.
Laser Sintering is a newer process that the parts come out very smooth and much stronger as well, BUT, it is much more expensive, these parts would have been several hundred dollars using the Laser Sintering process. Which at that point, might as well go for CNC machining, in Stainless steel would have been more than $400, if I go with softer aluminum price drops to a couple hundred. For the rail, that creates difficulties soldering it to the frame, but, I ultimately elected to epoxy it, so aluminum would have worked.

Keep in mind, these require a lot of fitting, you can not just snap them on out of the box.

I did not know Tripp-McCormick was the first double stack.
 

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I did not know Tripp-McCormick was the first double stack.
I did not mean to say they were.
I think PO's was the first double column 1911ish receiver.
Their first firearm product was the double column receiver only, advertised to be a simple swap of your existing Colt parts. Only later did they move into whole guns.
The first PO product I saw was a primer actuated paintball gun.
Remington bought up PO directly.
Armscor/RIA makes a pretty faithful copy.
Springfield had a double stack that appeared the same, but I have not seen one in person.

Tripp - McCormick designed the 2011 which is an entirely different product. Changes in management led to the split into STI and SVI. Ownership has moved around even after that, plus the several other present makers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I did not mean to say they were.
I think PO's was the first double column 1911ish receiver.
Their first firearm product was the double column receiver only, advertised to be a simple swap of your existing Colt parts. Only later did they move into whole guns.
The first PO product I saw was a primer actuated paintball gun.
Remington bought up PO directly.
Armscor/RIA makes a pretty faithful copy.
Springfield had a double stack that appeared the same, but I have not seen one in person.

Tripp - McCormick designed the 2011 which is an entirely different product. Changes in management led to the split into STI and SVI. Ownership has moved around even after that, plus the several other present makers.
Yea, the way your sentence was parsed it did seem like you could have said Tripp - McCormick made the first 2011 or the first double stack (as in 1911 with wider mag well). So it was the 2011.

What I'm reading, seems most of the 1911 based double stacks did their own creation of widening the mag well, so a lot of the effected parts will not swap, like the mag release.
The 2011 went a whole different route, but still retains most of the parts interchangeability.
Like we both said, Remington bought PO, so its safe to assume they are the same.
I have a Remington Magazine for my RIA Double Stack that works just fine, hand cycled, not actually shot yet.
I'm seeing people saying the RIA and Remington/PO Triggers and Mag Releases won't swap between the brands.

I considered doing a 2011 for my project, but the cost and availability of the .45 magazines as well as all the other parts being more expensive, was the biggest factor that steered me toward the RIA double stack frame. I couldn't find a Remington/PO frame.

BTW, earlier in the thread, I mentioned I tried a 2011 trigger in my RIA frame, it worked just barely. Its too small, but the magazine will still fit. So it will work to let the hammer fall, but since its too small it moves all over inside the frame for a very loose sloppy trigger. I ended up getting the RIA trigger and swapping the shoe with another trigger, for a better shoe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Now that I have the parts thoroughly degreased from a 6 hour bath in simple green and an hour bath in acetone...
Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Automotive lighting Bumper


Time to break out the cheap sand blaster.....
Green Grass Gas Lawn Electronic device


I did have to mask off some of the parts I didn't want to coat, the feed ramp, the edges of the sear/hammer and threads for screws.
Then blasted away, the 100 grit aluminum oxide didn't last as long as I expected. I tried to recover as much as possible by blasting inside or at the opening of the hopper to recover as much of the media as possible. But one and quarter way through two pistols, the 12 lbs is down to probably 2 lbs.. I should have some more by tomorrow. Look at the concrete stoop, that is the media all over the stoop and it was all over me.

Wood Auto part Vehicle Motor vehicle Automotive wheel system


Wood Automotive exterior Flooring Electric blue Beige


Wood Trigger Bumper Gun barrel Automotive exterior


So for Ultra Slick your suppose to blast with 100 grit at 40PSI and for the color coatings, blast at 100PSI.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
A quick update....
I had hoped to have the frame and slide to the engraver a week ago...
What is dragging this out?
I've been over ambitious with my Cerakoting plans....
I wanted to do this in OD Green, with Black Accents, a tigershark mouth stencil on the end of the slide and Micro-Slick on all interior and friction surfaces....

And Cerakote instructions, after degreasing you have to wear latex gloves when touching for everything...

I have to do a ton of masking with and a lot on small parts to do all these things, with gloves on, it is kicking my a$$.

This is as far as I gotten in the evening for the last week and half...
White Blue Font Cake decorating supply Cake

Writing implement Office supplies Writing instrument accessory Font Stationery


Tonight, I just had it, only getting a few parts masked off and hung on wire....

So I'm punting on the original idea that would have had me masking all sorts of parts to paint on part of the part in one color or micro-slick, then have to go back and mask again for another color...

With a few exceptions, I'm just going to coat each part in one color or micro-slick...
The barrel and barrel bushing, I'm going to stick to micro-slick for friction surfaces, but color for the external visible portions... of course the stenciling will be multi-color...
The rest, one color...

Micro-Slick for internal parts that are unseen...
OD Green for frame slide and most parts, both internal and external surfaces
Black for controls and mag well funnel, both internal and external surfaces

The beavertail grip safety, I'll go the extra step to make the beavertail OD green to match the frame, but the actual palm grip part, black

Hopefully I can get this out to the engraver next week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
So got to some Cerakoting tonight...
Wood Gas Tints and shades Space Metal


This is Cerakote Micro Slick P-109 being oven cured. ...
This is suppose to be a friction reducing coating, that can burnish back to the appearance of bare metal, but still remains in the grain of the surface to reduce friction and reduce corrosion...

Also Did the items I want in black in Cerakote Elite Midnight E-110, but ran out of daylight, and I suffered mistakes because of that....
Blue Bicycle part Art Font Auto part


A couple lessons learned from Cerakote....

Not much guidance on Micro-Slick, I had to search to find the suggested spray pressure was 30 psi, so I set up the spray gun the same for Cerakote Elite at the 30 psi.
I was suspicious because the Micro-Slick is clearly half the mass of Cerakote Elite. And I end up running out with more than enough that I loaded the spray gun with. I turned down the fluid volume to half as much and reloaded the gun, and it worked perfectly. Micro-Slick is suppose to be strained with the 325 mesh strainer, like Elite, and the Micro-Slick drained through it rather quickly.

Elite Series, as well as H-Series, takes time to mix, make sure to manage you time.

You need good lighting, and if you're an amateur like me, you need to spray outside for ventilation and avoid the mess the mess that will happen from spills and overspray and it will happen.

So do NOT run out of Daylight, which I did, and ended up with missing total coverage and then as I catch some of the missed areas and going back and spraying to cover them, I over sprayed and ran and had a few runs. So I have several pieces with bare spots and then some with runs. I should have waited till the next day and done it in daylight.

The Elite Series needs to be strained with a 325 mesh strainer and it will take forever for it to strain. Like 30 minutes for 2 oz to strain through. So set up to do the straining and don't think you can just pour it in and start spraying in a few minutes.

If you are going to do multiple color on one part, thus have the part masked off and then remask, you can blast the new area to be coated makes for cleaner break line, as well assure better adherence of the coating. One part I did no do this, I got some orange peeling, it may have been some adhesive residue from the tape.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
I got all the parts I'm doing in O.D. Green, Elite Series E-210 Moss hung and ready to spray....
Flooring Wood Brickwork Floor Line


And it starts drizzling rain, the rest of today and predicted for tomorrow....
There goes getting the Slide and Frames to the Engraver tomorrow....
Yes, I'm blasting and spraying the coat outside, I am amateur and do not have the booths or ventilation setup to do this indoors....

So I wait....
But, as I have already learned, patience is key when it comes to Cerkoting.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I've got a gun in the oven.....😝
Wood Gas Machine Metal Gun accessory


The forecast was for several hours of only 15% chance of rain, so I risked it, got everything sprayed and while it was curing in the oven, the rain started falling hard....
So one thing worked out for me....
I oversprayed, trying to get 100% coverage, so the coat is thicker than spec I'm sure.... I have a few runs that aren't very noticeable, I'm going to live with them...

The Frame
Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Composite material
 

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Don't be surprised if your slide ends up a bit on the tight side. I put mine together dry and just worked them back and forth until the coating wore enough that they cycled smooth again. Then I put the rest of the gun together and repeated the hand cycling process to wear the coating off the slide's upper lugs & the barrel lugs. When I first put my .40 S&W project together completely the slide would get stuck in the fully open position and I'd have to smack the back of the slide to get it back in battery. It probably took a few hundred cycles for things to run smooth again. It's interesting just how little it takes to cause the action to be sticky.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Yea, the Elite series, if properly applied is suppose to be less than a thousands of an inch. BUT, I cut the rails to only .001 - .002 clearance, at the same time tolerances stack up and I can tell there is more than .002 cause the slide can rock a little.

And at the end of spraying 2 pistols and each of their parts individually, I am finally getting familiar with the spray gun and cerakote, a lot of the parts I have it applied much thicker than recommended.

So several of the pieces I have trial fit together after coating, there is inference. Most appear they just need to be worked back and forth till the coating is worn down enough to allow motion as designed. A few may need to be sanded down to just get them to fit.

Thus, after these pistols are broken in, I plan on doing a full strip down of every part, degreasing and full cleaning. Likely there is going to be a lot of residue of the rubbed off coating mixed in the lubricant once everything is broken down.

So what's left;
Take the frame and slide (the slide is not coated) to the Engraver
Redo several parts coated in black that I messed
get ahead on cerakoting the few remaining small parts that will be in red or white
After getting the frame and slide back from the Engraver
Fill the engraving in the Frame in Red
Cerakote the slide with the planned stenciling
Put it all together
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
So now I'm waiting on the Laser Engraver to be available....

So I've trialed fitted the parts...
A couple required a little sanding but most fit together right away. They stick a little, so they will need to be worked back and forth a bit to free them up as necessary...

I'm waiting for the Slide to be Engraved before Cerakoting it....

Air gun Trigger Grey Gun barrel Wood

Trigger Air gun Gun barrel Gun accessory Wood


All the sub-assemblies that can be assembly before hand are done and bagged, so I'm all kitted out waiting for the engraving and then cerakoting the slide.

Air gun Trigger Revolver Gun barrel Gun accessory
 

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The Rail Block smoothed out more and a little better fitted...

View attachment 642510

I may have to cut down the frame a bit in that pocket....
Funny how my single stack, the rail block cut above the rail fits the contour of the frame perfectly... ...but the RIA double stack, the GI contour is way off...
Excellent thread! Thank you for sharing.

Why did you drill a hole in the rail? Does this have something to do with mounting it with the epoxy? Or something to do with fitting it up?
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 · (Edited)
Why did you drill a hole in the rail? Does this have something to do with mounting it with the epoxy? Or something to do with fitting it up?
I never drilled a hole in the rail, I made the exterior dimensions based off the Mil-Spec for the Picatinny Rail and the interior dimensions based off the drawings for the 1911.

At one point the dimensions actually meet, so it creates a hole in the wall. So I guess you could say, it has more to do with fitting it up.

It makes sense to me, Colt wanted to add the rail to their frame and they don't want to weaken the frame at all by cutting it into. So add enough metal to cut away into the shape and enough metal so they place the cuts so the deepest cut goes no further into the frame than the previous version, i.e. there is at least the original thickness at the narrowest points.

Yes, the Colt frame and a lot of frames with rails have cracked. The sharp angles cut into the metal create stress risers, that can cause cracking. Just goes to show you how thick the metal is, is not the only thing in structural strength.

I had two of these made, and used the other one on my M45A1 clone project, everything synced up better than expected. i.e. the std 1911 frame is pretty true to the drawings...
On the RIA double stack frame it was a much bigger challenge, the frame seems to have deviated a lot more from the drawings. It is a cast frame, and it might not be that RIA was simply sloppy in making molds, it may have been very deliberate changes they felt were necessary driven out of the other changes for the double stack capacity.

The standard frame, I didn't have to grind/cut into metal at all to fit the block, the curve in the frame matched up to the opening and curve of the rail block, I just had to fill in the gaps with some epoxy gaps came from not being able to precisely remove the metal to fit it.
The RIA double stack frame, some of the frame stuck out thru opening in the rail and I had to grind it down. The curve is moved a fraction of an inch from the standard frame, so it sticks out because of that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
BTW, I dropped the frame and slide off with the Laser Engraver last week. He does this as a side gig, so it will probably be 2 weeks before he gets it done.

Maryland just passed a law, another one of their ridiculous laws saying all 80% frames have to be serialized and marked, retroactively. So all the laser engravers don't want to take on the liability because of the law so its actually harder now to find someone to laser engrave an 80% frame.

It will be interesting to see what happens in a year, when the deadline is reached, and 90% of the Laser Engravers and FFL are still refusing to mark 80% frames, what the state will do? The law doesn't say an FFL has to do this for anyone, but it does say the FFL has to put all his information on the frame, see why they are reluctant to mark the frame IAW the new law?
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Oh, one more lesson learned....

Epoxy doesn't hold up to Media Blasting as well as metal....

I needed to media blast the frame for Cerakoting, so while the primary purpose of the epoxy is adhere the rail block to the frame it also is filling the gaps around the edges as I blended the two pieces together to look like one integral piece.

The media blasting cut away the epoxy some and the blending was not as smooth as it was originally. That is why you can see the Cerakoted product, you can tell where the epoxy fill is at.
 
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