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Discussion Starter #1
:scratch: I was reading some past posts regarding the series II swartz fp safety when a question came to me.

What was the purpose of that being introduced in the first place...seriously I don't know?

The three 1911's I own are Springield TRP, Dan Wesson Classic Commander Bobtail, and a Kimber SIS Custom.
Am I wrong in assuming all these pistols have some sort of Schwartz or does only the Kimber?

Thank you for helping a brother understand that which may not be understandable.:scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
Shane
 

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New Mag said:
:scratch: I was reading some past posts regarding the series II swartz fp safety when a question came to me.

What was the purpose of that being introduced in the first place...seriously I don't know?

The three 1911's I own are Springield TRP, Dan Wesson Classic Commander Bobtail, and a Kimber SIS Custom.
Am I wrong in assuming all these pistols have some sort of Schwartz or does only the Kimber?
Shane
Hi Shane,
If you own a 1911 with this type of safety, it will show when you field strip the gun. On the slide you will notice a small stainless looking plunger which appears to go through the extractor channel. On the frame you'll notice a tiny lever that will push the plunger up when the grip safety is pressed. This type of safety has NO effect on trigger pull. (Schwartz style)

If you have a colt series 80 (will say so on slide) you will see the same setup except the system is activated when pressing the trigger. This does have a bit of effect on trigger pull, but after I had a trigger job performed (by D R Middlebrooks) it was not noticeable (as far as I was concerned).

Google Schwartz safety and Series 80 safety, you'll see the difference. Only Colt has the Series 8- setup (as far as I know). Kimber has the Schwartz type.

If anyone has better information, please correct me. Kimber models which are labled "II" have the newer internal safety you speak of. I do not think Springfield is going this route at all.
 

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New Mag said:
What was the purpose of that being introduced in the first place...seriously I don't know?

Shane
It reduces (eliminates?) the risk of accidental discharge of the firearm if the gun is dropped on its muzzle, which could otherwise allow the firing pin to travel forward and set off a primer.

Many states also will only allow the sales of guns with "special safety features" like firing pin blocks, magazine safeties and loaded round indicators. Big Brother is "protecting" us...or just another way to take guns away by adding rediculous laws aimed at reducing the amount of guns that are legally available in your state.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Good news...the sis kimber does not appear to have it. Is that possible

Additonally neither the SA TRP and the Dan Wesson have a series 80 either...if I understood your description..

Is it possible that I dumb luck stumbled into 3 pistols that are not affected by this?

WOW...guess it is true...some times it is better to be lucky than good.

Seriously though...does anyone know for sure regarding my 3 model pistols??

Thanks again.
 

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New Mag said:
Good news...the sis kimber does not appear to have it. Is that possible

Additonally neither the SA TRP and the Dan Wesson have a series 80 either...if I understood your description..

Is it possible that I dumb luck stumbled into 3 pistols that are not affected by this?
The SIS Kimber (it's a series 70) and Springfield (it's a series 70) don't have the Swartz system, pretty sure Dan Wesson doesn't dabble in the Swartz system either. You've done well young Sky Walker:)
 

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Why in the name of Sam Colt do you refer to any gun OTHER than a Colt as series 70 (or series 80)? Might as well call it a ham sandwich :scratch:

A Kimber was never "series 70" no matter what you read on the 'net
 

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right! Series 80 and Series 70 are Colt only.

Everyone else who has a firing pin safety has something like the Swartz safety.

No one makes a series 80 system other than Colt.

Agreed
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Sorry for my poor choice of words that was based on my lack of 1911 vocabulary.....

Let me just say that none of the three 1911 pistols I have posses any extra safety thingies that are similar to shwartz on Kimbers or series 80 if they were a colt.

Even though I don't know what they should be called I am glad I don't have them.

Seriously....Much thanks to those who helped me to understand and answered my questions.

God Bless and Merry Christmas.
 

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Series 70/80 is an ignition design by Colt that other manufacturers paid rights to use or were sub contracted (like the GI model was-ie Remington, Sears, Ithaca, Springfield) to make. Why couldn't one describe an ignition system using the words 70 or 80 series? when ordering parts (like firing pins, firing pin stops and complete ignition systems) thats one of the things asked "series 70 or 80", are we splitting hairs? Swartz (not Schwartz) operates off the grip safety unlike Colts series 80 that works off the trigger so to call the Swartz design series 80 would be incorrect I guess:rolleyes: .
 

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Sorry, but the designation Series 70 had absolutely nothing to do with the "ignition system." A Series 70 Colt used the same ignition system as the 1911's and 1911A1's. The big difference in the Series 70 gun was the collet bushing and the fat barrel muzzle that allowed a tight lockup without having to hand fit a bushing to the barrel.

The Series 80 changed that with the addition of the two levers, the plunger and spring, a redesigned firing pin to allow the pin to be blocked, a thin armed GS, and a slot in the FP stop to allow the lever to clear. The trigger, sear, disconnecter and hammer were still the same.

Passive FP blocks were added to 1911's for the same reason you find them on every other modern semi-auto pistol..............."Stuff" happens.

I own 1911's both with and without a passive safety and all shoot and work just fine. All my other semi-autos have passive FP safeties.

Food for thought: What made Colt (Swartz) consider this in the 1930's if a discharge by dropping wasn't possible? Who made Colt design and patent the Series 80 in 1982 and why?
 

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Kruzr said:
Food for thought: What made Colt (Swartz) consider this in the 1930's if a discharge by dropping wasn't possible? Who made Colt design and patent the Series 80 in 1982 and why?
Weak firing pin springs and/or sear nose failure. If you ever inspect an OLD 1911 you will quickly notice that the firing pin spring, even in mint examples is usually 25-40% shorter due to metal fatigue over time. Its the reason why Wolff puts a new XP spring in the bag with EVERY 1911 spring they sell.

Sear nose failure. If you have an unsafe pistol that falls to half cock repeatedly and you damage your sear nose it is possible that your sear nose can break while loading or firing, dropping the hammer (bypassing the half cock notch) and causing a full-auto situation--OR if your 1911 falls out of the holster on the hammer and the sear nose breaks, the firing pin safety would also prevent a discharge.

With modern technology like XP firing pin springs, stronger internal parts and proper maintenence, you may never see the above two malfunctions. But that is why the 1911 was equipped with a firing pin safety.
 

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Bladeandbarrel said:
Weak firing pin springs and/or sear nose failure. If you ever inspect an OLD 1911 you will quickly notice that the firing pin spring, even in mint examples is usually 25-40% shorter due to metal fatigue over time. Its the reason why Wolff puts a new XP spring in the bag with EVERY 1911 spring they sell.

Sear nose failure. If you have an unsafe pistol that falls to half cock repeatedly and you damage your sear nose it is possible that your sear nose can break while loading or firing, dropping the hammer (bypassing the half cock notch) and causing a full-auto situation--OR if your 1911 falls out of the holster on the hammer and the sear nose breaks, the firing pin safety would also prevent a discharge.

With modern technology like XP firing pin springs, stronger internal parts and proper maintenence, you may never see the above two malfunctions. But that is why the 1911 was equipped with a firing pin safety.
Exactly...........in other words, to prevent an unintended discharge. You left out the one about dropping the gun on the muzzle. Apparently even the modern makers of 1911's believe that is a possibility so they equip the 1911's that have to pass the Kali drop tests a little differently than "normal." While we're at it, let's not forget that many law enforcement agencies require a passive FP safety on the guns they issue.
 

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Kruzr, I will now retreat to the corner with gum on my nose now:) but why do they ask us if its a series 70 or 80 when you by parts for a plethra of different 1911's on the market?:scratch: I'm confused and wish to be educated. Anyway, thanks for the info.-that's what I love most about this forum (just when you think ya know it all someone else is there to drop some more info on ya).
 

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For the record my two Para Ord (P-16 and P-13 guns) have the Colt series 80-type inertia firing pin safety system. It is an exact design copy to the Colt system.

While not correct, the industry seems to use the term’s series 70 and series 80 to distinguish between any firearm that may have it or similar inertial firing pin safeties.

I see the same use of terms when barrel manufacturers identify barrels
Wide hood (series 70) narrow hood (series 80) and neither is actually correct in use of terms.

I guess it’s kind a like the car industry calling a Cuda’ or a Firebird a “pony car” because the Mustang started the class of car.

Sometimes the industry as a whole just gets stuck on term standardization whether it’s correct or not. I don’t think it is meant to be misleading.
 

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The short answer: It was introduced to stop a pistol from firing when dropped on the muzzle.

Go ahead, drop a loaded 1911(EMPTY CHAMBER, of course) on the carpet. Uh which way is the muzzle pointed? Can you make it empty or loaded hit the muzzle?

So, why is this needed? Oh yea. . .because in gun fearing states they designed a test jig which will fixture the gun such that it drops on the muzzle every time. Then, they kept dropping it higher and higher until the firing pin spring failed. Then, that became the new standard drop test. Forget reality, forget safety, just make a gun fail. . .That was tthe mantra and that was achieved.

Now, let's see, if I can make a test, no matter how unreasonable which makes a Glock fire, will they(gun fearing politicals) strip their security detail of their Glocks? Maybe I could use just a simple rod through the trigger gard and stack 20 lbs of weight on the back of the slide. OMG, Glocks and all guns without a manual safety are soooo dangerous. They should be banned! NOW!!
 

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Kruzr said:
Exactly...........in other words, to prevent an unintended discharge. You left out the one about dropping the gun on the muzzle. Apparently even the modern makers of 1911's believe that is a possibility so they equip the 1911's that have to pass the Kali drop tests a little differently than "normal." While we're at it, let's not forget that many law enforcement agencies require a passive FP safety on the guns they issue.
I didn't leave out the muzzle drop. Its a non-issue unless you have a weak FP spring.
 

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Bladeandbarrel said:
I didn't leave out the muzzle drop. Its a non-issue unless you have a weak FP spring.
I guess SA, Les Baer, and Ed Brown would disagree. They all use lightweight or non-.45 FP's to prevent a discharge when dropping the gun muzzle down (from 1 meter + 1 cm = about 40 inches) in the Kali drop test. The test is done on new guns with new springs. The shooting "benches" at our range are 40 inches off the ground (pure coincidence.)

Colt must not agree either since they won't submit the Series 70 repro to the Kali tests but do so with Series 80 guns.

DANCESWITHGUNS: Don't retreat anywhere. You had the correct parts that are needed for the Series 80 (plus the extractor and GS.) Prior to the S80, they were just 1911 parts. Those parts you mentioned are different but not the hammer, sear, DC and trigger...these are interchangeable. Other than the safety itself, the S80 parts are changed to allow the safety to fit in the gun and operate.
 

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So you like firing pin safeties? I get it.
 
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