All good. Buy a box of each and see what your gun and you like the best. They will all get er done.
RA45T, or HST 230gr,/ which is the Best
I've been trying to make up my mind on which to buy for overall performance. Not all that concerned about the price just want the best. I've done some reading here and there but still confused as to which is the best round. What would be the concenses around here on 230gr.SD ammo. Winchester RA45T+P vs Federal HST+P or are both of these about the same as far as Expansion and Penatration ?
Thanks
PS; How would Speers Gold Dots compare?
Thanks
PS; How would Speers Gold Dots compare?
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
You can't go wrong with any of the 3 you have mentioned. Go with the one the is most easily obtained in quantity. All 3 are on the recommended list by
Dr. Gary Roberts. Here is the direct link:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964
I would prefer the std. pressure rounds for myself. I am currently using the HST2. Much easier to control for followup shots.
Here is a sticky from www.tacticalforums.com, it is from Dr. Gary Roberts. He is a well regarded LEO that researches ballistics and terminal effects:
"When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)
-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
----------------------------------------
Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
------------------------------------------
The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance. "
Dr. Gary Roberts. Here is the direct link:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000964
I would prefer the std. pressure rounds for myself. I am currently using the HST2. Much easier to control for followup shots.
Here is a sticky from www.tacticalforums.com, it is from Dr. Gary Roberts. He is a well regarded LEO that researches ballistics and terminal effects:
"When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .
Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:
9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
.40 S&W:
Barnes XPB 140 & 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (Q4355)
.45 ACP:
Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)
Notes:
-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)
-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 10 or 15 years ago. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
----------------------------------------
Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.
------------------------------------------
The keys are:
-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance. "
...I would prefer the std. pressure rounds for myself....Much easier to control for followup shots...
Strongly agree. I typically carry the RA45T but have some of the HST as well, and feel well served by each, since they work well in my guns and are ballistically very similar (which is to say, good penetration and terminal performance).
I have some of the new RA45T on the way and will file a brief report once I have it down the pipe.z
PS - Damien, thanks for the reprint of Doc Roberts findings. Still very valid and useful.
Thanks for the quick response to my question. The HST and the Gold Dot seem to be easier to obtain right now than the Winchester RA45T. I also wanted to know which one of these has been more consistant in the accuracy dept than the others?
I'd like to say thanks guys for the advice , and to damien for all the imformation and links.
Hst...but that's only because I have a bunch of it.
Scott
Scott
Both are great. Here's the results from my own UNSCIENTIFIC wetpack testing:
From a 5 inch 1911:
Federal 230 gr. HST2
Vel:High 877/Avg.854
Pene: 12 inches
Exp; 1.036
Rec. wt: 229.4grs.
Winchester RA45T
Vel:High 872/Avg.865
Pene: 12 inches
Exp:0.969
Rec.Wt:227.2grs.
Both extremely ferocious looking expansion with very adequate penetration.
From a 5 inch 1911:
Federal 230 gr. HST2
Vel:High 877/Avg.854
Pene: 12 inches
Exp; 1.036
Rec. wt: 229.4grs.
Winchester RA45T
Vel:High 872/Avg.865
Pene: 12 inches
Exp:0.969
Rec.Wt:227.2grs.
Both extremely ferocious looking expansion with very adequate penetration.
Had some failures in my Kimber Pro Raptor with Speer GDHP that I attribute to the ammo so I just bought 6 boxes of 230 grn HST, we'll see...
I have both in the standard pressure loads. I've tried both in 5", 4.25", and 3" 1911s, XD, M&P, and Glock. Both worked just fine and I'd say performance is a toss up but I don't have any scientifice data to go with that comment. I'd go with whatever was available and at the best price.
I like anything from Winchester... Like someone else said both are good brands of ammo.
I recently saw an article somewhere that concluded the +P version of the .45 was not much of an improvement. In shooting both, I would go with the standard loading to get back on target quicker.
This always surprises me. For terminal results, if it's a .38 spl, then a .357 mag is better. If it's a .44 spl then a .44 mag is better, but the death ray .45ACP standard velocity is as good as it gets.I recently saw an article somewhere that concluded the +P version of the .45 was not much of an improvement. In shooting both, I would go with the standard loading to get back on target quicker.
They are pistol rounds. I think any velocity increase is a good thing, if one can handle the recoil.
This thread is helpful, DeltaKilo I read a post you made in late September citing the Ranger T had a few reports on other forums with clogging. Has there been any update to that?
Any brand or caliber of hp can clog up. It is the nature of the beast because the bullet has a hole in it.This thread is helpful, DeltaKilo I read a post you made in late September citing the Ranger T had a few reports on other forums with clogging. Has there been any update to that?
None. Winchester Ranger T continues to be plagued by failures to expand through 4-layer denim. This is due to the cutter used to score the bullets to allow the copper jacket to tear and expand with the lead dulling, thus not cutting the scores deep enough.This thread is helpful, DeltaKilo I read a post you made in late September citing the Ranger T had a few reports on other forums with clogging. Has there been any update to that?
Oddly enough, the Ranger T-series +P is confirmed to not have this issue. The extra velocity from the added 100 FPS is enough that it expands reliably regardless of intermediate barriers.
At this time, if you choose to go with Ranger over HST or other quality rounds on Doctor Roberts' list (which is also stickied here on this forum, and updated with Doc's permission), I highly recommend the +P over the standard pressure for the simple fact that it expands reliably where the standard pressure does not.
I will also point out that the Ranger +P load at 950 FPS has very minimal increase in recoil, pressure, etc. I find little enough that I notice no difference in switching between the two types of loads.
This is true. With the Ranger T-series, however, there is a known cause that has been identified between lots of ammunition. Lots with bullets that failed to expand, when examined, showed noticeably shallower scoring than the lots that did not show any failures.Any brand or caliber of hp can clog up. It is the nature of the beast because the bullet has a hole in it.
To my knowledge, HST does not, at this time, exhibit any failures to expand regardless of barrier or pressure.
Gold dots and Barnes XPB/TacXP-based loads likewise.
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
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