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Discussion Starter #1
Hello All,
I love 1911,s but am only familiar with the modern ones.
I've given the 1911 fever to a friend and he found one he may wish to purchase.
It is marked Remington Rand and Property of U.S. Army. It has a Springfield Armory stamp on it. Ser. no. is 18235xx
I checked different websites and this serial no. shows up under Ithaca.
Rand 1743847-1816641
Ihaca1816642-1845997
Rand then resumes at 1890503
Was this Rand produced in 1945.
Would it have been shipped as a wartime gun.
I am confused on this one.
Man, if he could have fallen for a Combat Commander or Gold Cup,
I'd know what the hell to tell him.
Thanks,
Derrick
 

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Sounds to me like you have an Ithaca frame with a Remington Rand slide. What does the Springfield Armory mark look like? Is it the "SA" on the frame or the Springfield eagle head? If it is the "SA" on the right side of the frame, it could be an arsenal repaired pistol.

Regards,
Sam
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sam Colt Fan,
You are a gentleman.
I believe it is known as an ordnance stamp(crossed cannons in a circle).
My apologies. I have a lot to learn.
When I bought my first 1911 last year(Combat Commander) you supplied me with the build date on that in the Colt forum.
Let me say thanks,twice.
Derrick
 

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Derrick,

Mismatched pistols are very common. It's what makes the ones still 100% intact all the more valuable. Take a look at these two websites, and you'll get a lot more info on what the various markings mean:

http://www.1911info.com

http://usgi1911.tripod.com
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks for the reply DSK.
Why did the Rand serial numbers go to Ithaca in 1944-45 and then revert back to Rand after so many pistols?
This is how it shows it if you look at the Rand serial no. tables.
Were Rands (stamped Rand) shipped to Ithaca for assembly for a certain amount of pistols and then Rand began reassembling again at a later time..
 

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Interesting - a friend recently showed me an Ithaca she got from her Uncle who was a Marine in the Pacific in WWII. It looks 100% authentic to my amateur eyes, correct proof marks, roll marks and stamps, etc. but the serial # is Remington Rand series - just the opposite of yours.

Might be an arsenal refurb, but her uncle's story is also a little unusual: he claimed he got it off a dead Japanese officer - not impossible, but odd, at least. Maybe just his way of justifying having brought it home - a "war souvenir" sounds better than "stolen from US Government" :rolleyes: :biglaugh:

BTW, we cleaned it up after >50 years sitting untouched and it's a tack driver - surprised the heck out of me, but I shot 6 rounds out of it at an informal bowling pin shoot we hold (~ 20 yards) and was 6/6; better than I usually do with my Kimbers! :cool:
 

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"Were Rands (stamped Rand) shipped to Ithaca for assembly for a certain amount of pistols and then Rand began reassembling again at a later time.." No, not at that point that I'm aware of.

Clawson's book shows R-R going from 1743847 - 1816641
then Ithaca going from 1816642 - 1890503
then R-R going from 1890504 - 2075103

As the government placed orders, it assigned the serial numbers to be used example: Ithaca gets an order for 30,000 pistols in 1944. The government tells them they are to be numbered from 1441431 to 1471430. As the government required more pistols they simply gave the next block of numbers to who ever was awarded the contract. As previously noted, once in the hands of the military, anything could happen. The NCOIC of a given unit armory says, "Okay guys, get all the .45 out for a clean up and inspection." The snuffies then proceed to pull them apart, clean them and reassemble them. There might be three, four or more guys doing this job. You think they took time to match up frames to slides, most of which are not numbered to one another? Not hardly. In fact, I doubt if the average guy in the armory knew how the serial number ranges ran or for that matter cared. He just wanted to get the job done and move on. That's one example of how many of these guns are mismatched. The other is additional replacement slides were made by most of the manufactorers. The slides were replaced just as you would a barrel; take the old one off, put a new one on. Again, no consideration was given to replacing like for like.

Drennen & Derrick, you guys might want to swap pics of your slides and maybe swap slides as right now, you've both got mixmasters.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
SGT. Art.
Thank you. I fully understand now.
I've never been accused of being a quick learner.
Remington Rand side.Ithaca frame.
We will pass on purchasing this pistol.
In Canada the 1911 and 1911A1 are few and far between at least from my searching.
My friend would really like a Colt 1911A1 but it is not an easy task finding one in original, good condition. At least not here in Canada.
Thanks all for helping me understand.
Derrick
 

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My friend's "Ithaca" is a family heirloom, not really a collector item - and as I said, it's a great shooter. I doubt she'd want to sell it, but if she did, I might make an offer :D :cool:
 

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Didn't some of the Ithaca and Remington Rand serial numbers overlap? I though quick way to tell an Ithaca frame from a Remington Rand frame was to look at the side of the trigger guard. The Remington Rands had numbers on them while the Ithacas had some symbols. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

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Ithacas have a variety of symbols on the trigger bow in the same place Colt's stamps it's Verified Proof "VP" symbol. Although, not hard and fast, it seems most Ithacas also have the FJA acceptance stamp running diagonally as opposed to the R-R which which usually runs horizontally. Ithacas usually aren't as nicely machined as R-R with regards to exterior appearance. There are usually a lot of machining marks left in the metal that wasn't polished out before the Parkerizing process.

Anything could have happened, but I've not heard of R-R and Ithaca overlapping serial numbers. Ithaca shipping records are available, you can see them on WWW.coolgunsite.com or Clawson's "Collector's Guide".
 
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