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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I need help identifying a casing failure problem on a Colt Delta Elite 10mm. I have fired hundreds of rounds of standard 10mm ammo and this is what happened after 4 rounds of Buffalo Bore 21B/20 180 gr JHC at 1350 fps. Destroyed my magazine but the gun seems undamaged otherwise. Just a couple of powder burns thankfully. I contacted Buffalo Bore and had some pretty terrible emails from them basically saying there is no way it's their fault and if I don't like that answer to bad. I would be happy to post the emails for anyone interested. I am going to have a gunsmith take a good look at my pistol and make sure it is fully functional and safe to use. If it turns out to be a problem with the pistol I guess a trip back to Colt will take care of it.
Open to suggestions and I can post more pics if I need to.
 

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Looks like perhaps your barrel might not be providing full case support. I think I read another thread here just recently about the 10mm Delta Elite Colt having some variation in the barrels, with some providing good support (if not as much as a ramped barrel) and others not so much. Was that factory loaded ammunition, or reloads? Was it especially "hot"?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes it was factory loaded. I bought 2 boxes and only got 4 rounds off before this happened. I usually shoot Remington UMC 180 gr FMJ since it is easy to come by and cheaper range ammo. I was going to keep the higher end Buffalo Bore as a carry round. I showed my casing and pistol to a gunsmith friend tonight and he thinks it was a casing problem.
 

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Looks like the round did not make it to full battery, it was fired before is was chambered all the way.
Might want to take your barrel out and see if the cartridges chamber all the way and use a micrometer on them to check specs.
 

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I think pacific is right. At first glance the curve of the blowout looked like it would follow the throating of the barrel (and it still does), but at the bottom of the casing in the picture it looks like the slide may have been as much as 1/8" out of battery. Was this in the middle of a relatively rapid string of fire? Does the disconnector look in good shape?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
There was no rapid fire. We were checking the sights at different distances. The disconnector seems to be fine. Other than some brass marks inside the barrel and chamber and the mag being in 3 pieces it looks good.
 

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What do your other three fired brass look like? Are they also bulged in the same region?

I don't recall seeing a blown case that has torn metal out of the thick region including the extractor groove. Usually a unsupported blowout just blows the "weak" unsupported region of the brass and does not include metal from the head because it is very thick there. See this link (http://38super.net/Pages/9X23.html) and Figure 10 for an excess pressure blowout in an unsupported chamber. Note that the extractor groove region is intact.

EDIT: What do the primers on all these cases look like? Do they shows signs of excess pressure, especially the blown one? Pics would be great.
 

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Yep not enough case support with the Delta barrels for shooting the full throttle 10mm ammo. If you go to Underwoods website they make ammo especially for the Delta's and they are loaded down a little. Buffalobore should also state that on their ammo boxes but they don't. I guess you could always have a custom barrel made with more case head support.

Dan Wesson's RZ-10's already have fully supported barrels, as well as a bunch of other manufacturers in 10mm. I don't know why Colt doesn't make them now a days with all the full powered ammo on the market. Well glad to hear you didn't get hurt and I wouldn't shoot anymore of that ammo out of your Delta until you get a fully supported barrel in it.
 

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Doesn't appear in the photo that the extractor groove area ripped out, but definitely it did in front of it, this leads me to believe it is an unsupported area in the casing problem. Full house 10mm loads (180 gr at 1350) are really for ramped (fully supported) barrels, and the Deltas don't usually come that way stock. The Kimber Eclipses, WC's, DW's, and several more actually do come standard with the ramped barrel, and don't have a problem with that kind of load. The best standard loadings I've seen from the major ammo makers are the Winchester Silvertip 175 gr., which should work very well in your Delta, but if you want the heavier Buffalo Bore or Underwoods loads, get a ramped barrel, a firing pin stop that is more flat-bottomed, and a 24# mainspring. JMO.
 

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All of you surely know more about 10mm's than I but I pose these questions.

1) Why would any major manufacturer market any pistol that cannot safely shoot any "off the shelf" ammo of correct type?

2) Who would want a firearm from any manufacturer that cannot safely shoot any "off the shelf" ammo of the correct type?

It seems to me that a firearm running that close to the margin of safety is unsafe and I find it hard to believe that they would sell them even with a disclaimer of some sort. Which there apparently isn't.

What I am getting at is this guy didn't cook up some hot home loads or try ammo intended for a different firearm. He went to a retail store and picked them up (in theory anyway) and proceeded to blow his magazine apart! Even BB's Website claims they are safe in ANY 10mm pistol and run at standard pressures.

I guess I'm just not convinced something else is not going on here.
 

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All of you surely know more about 10mm's than I but I pose these questions.

1) Why would any major manufacturer market any pistol that cannot safely shoot any "off the shelf" ammo of correct type?

This is most likey caused by the delta's lack of support. Buffalo Bore is not your standard off the shelf ammo. They load right to the max for its given spec. I suspect a little more in some cases. I have some 38 spcl +p that rival several 357 loads.
 

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I need help identifying a casing failure problem on a Colt Delta Elite 10mm. I have fired hundreds of rounds of standard 10mm ammo and this is what happened after 4 rounds of Buffalo Bore 21B/20 180 gr JHC at 1350 fps. Destroyed my magazine but the gun seems undamaged otherwise. Just a couple of powder burns thankfully. I contacted Buffalo Bore and had some pretty terrible emails from them basically saying there is no way it's their fault and if I don't like that answer to bad. I would be happy to post the emails for anyone interested. I am going to have a gunsmith take a good look at my pistol and make sure it is fully functional and safe to use. If it turns out to be a problem with the pistol I guess a trip back to Colt will take care of it.
Open to suggestions and I can post more pics if I need to.
Before you start bashing BB you might want to wait and see what YOU did to your Pistol. Was it a dirty gun, a bad round, a bad/weak recoil spring, limp wresting or something else.
To start posting emails and trying to burn a company only burns bridges.
I own/run a boating forum and I have calmed my guys down when they had issues with boats, motors or toys and it works well most of the time.

Most companies will stand behind there product and sometimes even when it's not there fault. It's good PR for them. But you come out of the hole pointing fingers at a manufacture....Your on your own.

If, I thought the Ammo [in your case] was suspect I might say something like....
"Man I was at the range today and had some thing weird happen. Let me start by saying that my Pistol was clean, it was beautiful morning and no one else at the range but my wife and I, I got my go to ammo set up on the bench, loaded my mag and started shooting. Next hing I know is my hand hurts and the Magazine is on the ground. I'm good to go and my wife is fine. Pistol is going to the smith to see what's up."

This is how I would start my conversation, you get more with sugar than salt. No company likes BAD PR, just like you don't.

Not trying to bust your chops, just telling you what works well for my guys.
 

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What you've got is a case head blowout. It's a not uncommon problem with 10mm. There's enough blame to go around here. That particular Buffalo Bore loading is advertised at 180gr. at 1350 ft/s. SAAMI spec suggests a max velocity of 1275 ft/s for 175gr. That says there's a good chance Buffalo Bore is, at least in whatever lot they got that number from, over pressure.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/specifications/Velocity_Pressure_CfPR.pdf

That said, I'm pretty sure some Colt Delta Elite barrels don't provide sufficient support for max pressure rounds, let alone over pressure proof rounds. There's just not enough case support.

Honestly 10mm would probably benefit from splitting into a normal and +P spec. Then again arguably this sort of hot rodding should be saved for revolvers anyways,
 

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That certainly looks like a high pressure blowout in the area of the feed ramp.

Unless the ramp is cut back too much that is an ammo problem.

If the magazine is the only damage it might not be worth going to war with them but I'd look elsewhere for ammo.
 

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So 1275 is good to go all day long but 1350 makes the mag blow out? My math stinks but that's not much margin to work with. I can't imagine any QCI guys or engineers being OK with that.

BB's load data was taken using a Delta Elite as a test pistol. If they were blowing them out by design I am pretty sure either Colt or BB would be plastering this information all over everything they could.

I still say no way. Lets see the primer.
 

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The following pictures would help us understand the case blowout better:

1. Picture of the primer on the blown-out case and the other rounds of this ammo fired through this gun.

2. Picture of the head of the other fired rounds of this ammo, specifically to look for bulging in the unsupported region.

3. Remove the barrel from the gun, drop a round in the chamber, and get a photo of how much case support you have in the unsupported region.

4. Drop this blown-out case in the barrel aligned as it would have been when it blew-out and let's see how far it goes in. It almost looks like the bulge ring extends around to the top of the cartridge suggesting an out-of-battery firing. Can't tell, but this photo would help.

Thank you.
 

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It does look similar to the OP's cartridge SD, and to the link you put up here on the far right. Maybe just a tad higher on the OP's case though.

 

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I'm pretty sure he is focusing on the other views at this point. The primer end for one is a good indicator but all of the requested views would be even more telling.
 

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"safe to use in any standard 10mm pistol. ( from BB's website)
And, as Corrigun points out, BB tested the ammo in a Delta Elite.

So, it's possible that something's wrong with the pistol. The way the brass sticks out from the blowout area indicates the event might have occurred when out of battery.

Or, the ammo was overpressure.

Hard to speculate further without getting a clean bill of health from his gunsmith, and that hasn't happened yet.
 
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