1911Forum banner

Reloading Keith Style .44 Hard Cast.

2631 Views 61 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  Michael W Cuber
Bag Luggage and bags Textile Grey Air gun

Ordering some 260 gr Keith Style Flat Base from Rim Rock Bullets, and was wondering if anyone has loaded these bullets, or a similiar 260 gr bullet?
I’m loading for a Taurus M-44, and I’m not looking for max loads with H-110, but will be loading with CFE Pistol, and Unique. Don’t think the Taurus is equal in strength to a 29 Smith and certainly nothing like a Redhawk, but would like to work up some loads in the 1100-1150 fps range that won’t put any undue stress on the Taurus .44, so I’d be interested in anyones experience loading this bullet, or for a similiar Taurus .44 Mag. I’m really looking for a bigger hammer than 180’s in my Service Six without having to buy a new revolver!
  • Like
Reactions: Rocket3 and VF-1
21 - 40 of 62 Posts

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
I’m just trying to work with what I’ve got available, at the time I couldn’t find any Unique, still trying to find some Bluedot for 10 mm loads but it seems to be rarer than hens teeth. Another .44 Mag load I’m loading for two legged varmits is 8 gr. Red Dot and a Speer 4427 200 gr Gold Dot 44 Spl bullet. Chronos around 975 fps.
Working with what you have available or can find seems to be the common story during this supply shortage.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Great shooting, I am using 7.5 to 8.0g Unique and RimRocks in special cases for my Smith 329pd. works for me now in TN!
Tried heavier loads, but they were getting a little sticky and harder to follow up with—the 9.5 Grs of CFE was the best group I’ve shot in a long time, and I think it would be more controllable in double action than some of the others. I also really liked how Oregon Trails / Rim Rock packaged the bullets; the box of 500 Rim Rocks were in two other boxes with paper packed around them!
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,023 Posts
Rim Rock is great, I have been using their bullets for years. I need to place an order for my Colt 45 clone. I got a set of dies from Grumpy and want to load for it. It is one of my favorite fun guns. I have an Uberti "El Patron" 43/4" with a superb trigger and action. Definately NOT a quick draw SA. The trigger is much too light and crisp for any old west shenanigans. I always load one skip one and load four with this one. It is a true rendition of the 1873.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,023 Posts
It is a SS handgun so wasn't selling quick enough for Murdocks in Missoula. They red tagged this one for 449.00 NIB out the door. I couldn't pass it up. Numbered line bored cylinder. Their Competition Ready model for the SASS crowd. To me, it is the perfect woods gun for knocking around or horse packing.

I just pretend it is a custom nickel plated Colt. This works for me LOL I had Jeff Morrow saddle maker build a simple cross draw holster for it
Air gun Wood Table Trigger Shotgun

Wood Sculpture Fawn Revolver Statue
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
It is a SS handgun so wasn't selling quick enough for Murdocks in Missoula. They red tagged this one for 449.00 NIB out the door. I couldn't pass it up. Numbered line bored cylinder. Their Competition Ready model for the SASS crowd. To me, it is the perfect woods gun for knocking around or horse packing.

I just pretend it is a custom nickel plated Colt. This works for me LOL I had Jeff Morrow saddle maker build a simple cross draw holster for it View attachment 660157
View attachment 660156
Chance-dg, that is a very nice rig for $449. I’ve had Colt SAA’s, but for the money they now command, I’d rather have a Vaquero, Peitta, Uberti, Cimarron, or EMF. You get more bang for your buck, so to speak—main thing is you can shoot them and have fun without depreciating their value. What I found with the replicas was that some are built better than others, depending on when, and where, and who put them together, so really looking them over before buying goes a long way in insuring you get one that times right and shoots well. That SS Single Action really looks like a Nice One!
You might be surprised what you can do by Chance with a 250 Gr RN Cowboy load at 800 fps—EMF SAA, and a much younger me back when I lived in Idaho!
Hood Jaw Wheel Automotive tire Tire
Wood Fawn Art Tail Snout
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,105 Posts
H-110 aka W-296 works best when slightly compressed and does not work well in reduced loads. True 'Keith-style' bullets have a long nose and short shank. They can be too long for some revolvers. Lots of folks got into trouble when using SWC's with a longer shank and data for a Lyman/Ideal Keith-style bullet. Some powders do not like to be compressed.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I’ve got H-110, but I didn’t want to go that direction because it can’t be reduced, and, honestly, I don’t know if the Taurus would handle very many of those. I was trying for a load that might give me around 1100 fps. Not enough light here to use my Chrono, but I will this spring and see what these loads are actually doing. Might try some 2400 if I can scrounge some.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
7,105 Posts
I’ve got H-110, but I didn’t want to go that direction because it can’t be reduced, and, honestly, I don’t know if the Taurus would handle very many of those. I was trying for a load that might give me around 1100 fps. Not enough light here to use my Chrono, but I will this spring and see what these loads are actually doing. Might try some 2400 if I can scrounge some.
I will leave my personal opinions of Taurus revolvers out of it, but I do understand the cylinder may not be long enough for the 429421. Not sure how Rim Rock bullets are designed. If they are too long, try .44 Special brass.

Here's some good reading about Keith's heavy .44 Special (+P?)_loads using 2400. Note they differentiate between early and late brass as well as the different burn rates of early/modern 2400.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I will leave my personal opinions of Taurus revolvers out of it, but I do understand the cylinder may not be long enough for the 429421. Not sure how Rim Rock bullets are designed. If they are too long, try .44 Special brass.

Here's some good reading about Keith's heavy .44 Special (+P?)_loads using 2400. Note they differentiate between early and late brass as well as the different burn rates of early/modern 2400.
I don’t have much confidence in Taurus, because previously I’ve had to send them all back, so I know the sentiment. So far this one is being very well behaved, and my friend wanted some cash out of it at a time when I wasn’t going to spend a thousand on a Smith &Wesson.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
Darn nice shootin'!
Thank you—these are the best loads I’ve ever come up with for the M-44 Taurus. Previous loads with Berrys 240 gr flat nose, and Nosler Jacketed Soft Points would do no better than 4 to 5 inches off a rest at 25 yards. Those bullets were loaded with Tite Group, Tite Wad, Blue Dot, and 800X; nothing really jumped out at me. Then I got curious about working up a mid range load with a heavier Keith style bullet for wandering around the woods and when I’m cutting firewood. The results with the Rim Rock bullets are really encouraging, and I’m looking forward to Spring to see what I might be able to do at 25 and 50 yards.
Going to try 2400 (15 to 17 grs.) also when I can scrounge a can of it up.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
4,023 Posts
Chance-dg, that is a very nice rig for $449. I’ve had Colt SAA’s, but for the money they now command, I’d rather have a Vaquero, Peitta, Uberti, Cimarron, or EMF. View attachment 660169
Great pics and I am sure she made good eating. Thank you! It is my understanding, Uberti is top shelf, their Taylor&Co are a step down. I had always wanted a Colt but when I had money they were and are very scarce and usually way overpriced. I knew this El Patron model was out of Uberti's custom shop and jumped when I found it. I talked to their CS right after I got it. It is a true 4 click 1873 Colt clone with Wolfe springs, line bored and numbered cylinders with a cylinder gap too narrow for my feeler gauges to measure. My GS and I have shot it a lot lately, he is great at 25yd bulls eyes. The gun has about a 1 1/2 lb trigger from the factory, crisp best trigger I ever had on a handgun. This gun is rated to handle even Hornady factory loaded 265g tipped bullet. It is very strong and tight. I really like it
I carried a 44 for many years, still do and have taken several does and finished a cow elk with one of mine. Now with dies I can load 45 Colt too.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Great pics and I am sure she made good eating. Thank you! It is my understanding, Uberti is top shelf, their Taylor&Co are a step down. I had always wanted a Colt but when I had money they were and are very scarce and usually way overpriced. I knew this El Patron model was out of Uberti's custom shop and jumped when I found it. I talked to their CS right after I got it. It is a true 4 click 1873 Colt clone with Wolfe springs, line bored and numbered cylinders with a cylinder gap too narrow for my feeler gauges to measure. My GS and I have shot it a lot lately, he is great at 25yd bulls eyes. The gun has about a 1 1/2 lb trigger from the factory, crisp best trigger I ever had on a handgun. This gun is rated to handle even Hornady factory loaded 265g tipped bullet. It is very strong and tight. I really like it
I carried a 44 for many years, still do and have taken several does and finished a cow elk with one of mine. Now with dies I can load 45 Colt too.
Our LGS recently had a Blue and Case Colored 4 3/4” Uberti in .45 Colt. It timed and locked up well, and I looked at it several times, but I’ve presently got too many irons in the fire. Your Stainless El Patron sure looks like a nice one.
Decades ago, I worked at Shapel’s Gun Shop when I lived in Idaho, and I’d always look the Single Actions over really carefully when we got one in. They weren’t all created equally, but there were some that were really nice. Same thing really held true for Ruger’s and Smith & Wessons. Some had better triggers and better cylinder alignment. Some would not always lock on every cylinder whether double or single action. Working in the store gave me the opportunity to really try things out, and my boss was pretty good about letting me take the used guns out and shoot them—I was probably one of his better customers besides his employee! His mom could deduct my layaway payments directly from my check.
Still thinking of a .45 Colt in some persuasion, so maybe one will come along soon. For now the Taurus and my Police Service-Six will have to satisfy my Six Gun need!
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,235 Posts
Thank you very much—I feel like I’m on the right track with this. The data I’ve looked at with Unique goes from 10 gr to 11.2 for right at 1200 fps. I’ve had Grizzly’s come through my yard here in Eastern Interior Alaska, but have had some of my closest calls with Cow Moose, so I want more penetration than anything else.
QUOTE="Michael W Cuber, post: 13664434, member: 310028"]
I don’t have much confidence in Taurus, because previously I’ve had to send them all back, so I know the sentiment. So far this one is being very well behaved, and my friend wanted some cash out of it at a time when I wasn’t going to spend a thousand on a Smith &Wesson.
---------------------------
I have loaded the 10 Grains of Unique with a 240 grain bullet that I cast for over 45 years. It is a great general purpose load. If there are Grizzles about you really want to move up to H110 or W 296 or one of the newer powders. There is a solid 200 fps to be gained with less pressure. Lil'Gun and AA#9 give the highest velocity in the 240 and 300 grain bullets just barely above 110/296 but far above Unique. Unique is my favorite pistol powder just not for serious loads.

I have a SW model 29, a Ruger Redhawk and a Rossi 5 shot 44 mag. The Rossi was a special run, it is the 5 shot Tracker, same gun but with the shorter barrel. I would not be afraid to fire the Tracker with any factory load or any load in any manual.

Taurus has been making guns a very long time, I would not worry about the steel in them or the pressures of factory or equivalent loads. That said I would stay with the 240 or 250 grain loads at whatever was max. As I said above, you can get much more velocity with Lil"Gun than any other. That CFE you are using it also excellent and gives high velocity and low pressures. I would suggest using it and just working toward the max load, and not worry about the gun. It will be fine as long as you do not exceed the manuals. Hre is some of the load and pressure data from Hodgen, the CFE is low pressure, a good plan. but others will give higher velocity with the same or less pressure on the gun, and you. Lil'Gun is probably the best.

Rectangle Font Parallel Pattern Circle


Font Rectangle Parallel Screenshot Number


Font Rectangle Parallel Pattern Number


I also just checked my Winchester load manual, they make 231 which is similar to Unique and they make 296. With equal chamber pressure and the 240 grain loads there is about 250-275 fps more with the 296, which is the same as H110. If chamber pressure is your worry, then you need to get away from Unique and go to Lil'Gun, CFE, H110 or W 296.
Of course you have to use what you can find. Good luck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Michael W Cuber

· Premium Member
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Discussion Starter · #40 · (Edited)
QUOTE="Michael W Cuber, post: 13664434, member: 310028"]
I don’t have much confidence in Taurus, because previously I’ve had to send them all back, so I know the sentiment. So far this one is being very well behaved, and my friend wanted some cash out of it at a time when I wasn’t going to spend a thousand on a Smith &Wesson.
---------------------------
I have loaded the 10 Grains of Unique with a 240 grain bullet that I cast for over 45 years. It is a great general purpose load. If there are Grizzles about you really want to move up to H110 or W 296 or one of the newer powders. There is a solid 200 fps to be gained with less pressure. Lil'Gun and AA#9 give the highest velocity in the 240 and 300 grain bullets just barely above 110/296 but far above Unique. Unique is my favorite pistol powder just not for serious loads.

I have a SW model 29, a Ruger Redhawk and a Rossi 5 shot 44 mag. The Rossi was a special run, it is the 5 shot Tracker, same gun but with the shorter barrel. I would not be afraid to fire the Tracker with any factory load or any load in any manual.

Taurus has been making guns a very long time, I would not worry about the steel in them or the pressures of factory or equivalent loads. That said I would stay with the 240 or 250 grain loads at whatever was max. As I said above, you can get much more velocity with Lil"Gun than any other. That CFE you are using it also excellent and gives high velocity and low pressures. I would suggest using it and just working toward the max load, and not worry about the gun. It will be fine as long as you do not exceed the manuals. Hre is some of the load and pressure data from Hodgen, the CFE is low pressure, a good plan. but others will give higher velocity with the same or less pressure on the gun, and you. Lil'Gun is probably the best.

View attachment 660903

View attachment 660904

View attachment 660906

I also just checked my Winchester load manual, they make 231 which is similar to Unique and they make 296. With equal chamber pressure and the 240 grain loads there is about 250-275 fps more with the 296, which is the same as H110. If chamber pressure is your worry, then you need to get away from Unique and go to Lil'Gun, CFE, H110 or W 296.
Of course you have to use what you can find. Good luck.
Would there be that much advantage using the slower powders given the short barrel of the Taurus? It’s ported with a “expansion chamber” under the ports, so the actual barrel is more like 3”. I wouldn’t mind trying the Lil’Gun though, same as I want to try 2400. I’m not keen on the H-110; I’ve studied the data and don’t want to go straight to the top. I might get a Blackhawk in .45 Colt for loading and shooting the heaviest loads, but for now the Taurus is what I’ve got, and I’m very happy with the 260 gr Keith style bullets.
Thank you for linking the load data—it gives me something to mull over!
 
21 - 40 of 62 Posts
Top