[LAK]

It might outshoot a standard M1A; on a calm windless day. But how well a rifle shoots, depends on may things.

Take two Remington 700's, out the box - same rifle - same ammo - and one might well outshoot the other by a significant margin.

Personally, as I mentioned in another thread, I think the heavy-barrel "sniper" guns are over rated. Unless it is indeed a LIGHT "tactical" I would be more inclined to go with a lightweight rifle of similar accuracy standard.

The only time you are going to miss all that barrel weight is in competition, where the extra metal will heat up slower, and disperse heat faster when you shoot more than two or three rounds between letting the barrel cool off. Or, if you really want the extra weight to help "steady" the sight picture. Give me a lightweight anytime though.

 

[Patrickl]

The salesman is talking apples and oranges. How in the name of Heaven he could make a comparison between a bolt action rifle and a semi-auto battle rifle is beyond me.

If you want precision accuracy then go for the Remington. If you want very acceptable accuracy in a defense rifle go for the standard grade M1A1. If you want precision accuracy in a defense rifle go for the match grade M1A1.

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by BOLANTEJ:
...the salesman told me that now i needed something that could really reach out and touch someone/thing...

He was pulling your chain.

Different calibers are used in different contexts. The .223 is used solely in a law enforcement context where engagements are always 100 yds or less. Within this short distance, the bullet is not only flat but the effects of crosswind are nearly nil. Take a .223 out to 500 yds and beyond in a moderate crosswind, and the light bullet gets bucked like a rookie cowboy on a wild stallion. Also, believe it or not, there is the "flinch factor." Law enforcement applications require a bullet to strike the medulla oblongata (tiny area at the base of the brain) to instantly incapacitate a hostake taker who may have a gun to somebody's head. A rifleman cannot afford to anticipate the recoil of a .308 and possibly throw the shot. Overpenetration is another matter; what lies beond the perpetrator? A .223 will do far less damage after passing through the perp than a .308. So, in short, the .223 is ideal in LE situations at 100 yds or less.

The .308 is the ideal caliber in military sniping situations. The bullet is about three times heavier than the .223, so it is much better in downrange crosswinds. A heavy bullet also retains more energy downrange than a light bullet considering they had equal muzzle velocity. Light bullets like the .223 "crap out" early. No worry about recoil throwing a medulla oblongata shot off either, because that's not what you're aiming for in military applications. The center mass of the torso is the target. If you don't kill the enemy at least you can wound him severely. This is acceptable. Also in military sniping situations, you don't want to engage less than 500 yds because the enemy might determine your position and track you. So it is necessary to engage further out. This is where the .308 shines because of the reduced crosswind effects and retained energy.

To sum it all up, you would never use a .223 to reach out and somebody. Leave that job to the .308 or the flat-shooting 3000+ fps .30 caliber screamer cartridges. But, as a tradeoff, these screamers are not as accurate as the .308. Buy a reloading manual and study what point blank means and what increased velocity does to accuracy. It is very relevant to this discussion. Point blank is widely misunderstood. It does not mean close up or execution style as it has been portrayed in the TV cop shows and movies.

I have the Remington 700 Police in the 26" barreled .308. I used to have the .300 Win. Mag. I sold it because I couldn't get the groups I desired. The increased velocity and short neck make this a horrible tackdriver in my experience. This is a hunting round, in my opinion, where extreme accuracy is not needed. Oh, hell. I probably just started a .308 vs. 300 Mag flame war. I hope not.

Take care,
Rob


[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-19-2001).]

 

[Powderman]

The problem with the .300 Win Mag is the fact that if you seat bullets in deep enough to fit the magazine in most rifles, you are a long, long ways away from the rifling. My Winchester Laredo is like this. Bullets in far enough to load the magazine? Expect about 2 1/2 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards. Use a tailored handload that the rifle likes? Oh, my gosh!!

My load (safe in MY rifle, work yours up carefully):

New Winchester cases
175 grain Sierra MatchKing
70.0 grains, IMR 4831
Federal STANDARD Match Primers
Seated to a COL of: 3.510 inches, no crimp

Measured group: 3 rounds into .384 at 100 yards; five rounds into .468 at 100 yards.

Rifle: Winchester M70 Laredo
Glass bedded, everything else box stock
Scope: Simmons (yes, I said Simmons)8-32x44

Good luck with your rifle!

------------------
"Be not afraid of any man, no matter what his size;

When trouble rises, call on me and I will equalize."

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by Powderman:
Measured group: 3 rounds into .384 at 100 yards; five rounds into .468 at 100 yards.

That is a good point. I neglected to mention that I was shooting .300 Win Mag Federal Gold Medal with Sierra Matchking bullets. I still use Federal Gold Medal with Sierra Matchkings in .308, but to a much greater degree of accuracy than the .300 mag was able to produce.

As I wrote, it is just my opinion that the .300 mag is not as inherently accurate as the .308. I'm not saying it is fact.

Take care,
Rob

 

[Powderman]

Believe it or not, I agree with your post. The .300 Win Mag can be a frustrating rifle to shoot. Loaded with a round it likes, it can outshoot almost any other rifle, IMHO. Out of the box, and with factory ammo, it can cause gray hairs.

My M1A, though--now, that's a different story. I tried a recent range experiment: First loads were as follows:

Federal Gold medal factory new cases,
Federal LR Match primers
175 grain MatchKing
40.0 of IMR 4895
Cases deburred, pockets uniformed, neck turned, etc, etc, etc.
Each charge handweighed
Each bullet weighed.

Second lot:

150 grain mil surp pulldown bullets, complete with leftover tar and sealant (eeewwww)

42.0 IMR 4895, measure thrown

Federal Match primers

Different cases from the brass bin

Uniformly crimped to h-e-double toothpicks with the Lee Factory Crimp die.

This was done to see just how much of a difference all the accuracy steps made.

Rifle: SA Nat'l Match M1A (old model) with Kahles 3-12x56 scope mounted

What happened?

The MatchKings shot like doo-doo! Patterns at 100 yards never fell below 2 inches.

The mil-surp, throw together, bottom of the brass barrel plinkers?

Groups comparable in size to the .300--five groups fired, ALL under one-half inch. Two screamers--.250 and .298, respectively. Rounds literally stacked on top of each other.

So, again I agree--the M1A is a much more forgiving rifle to shoot with standard ammo loaded to factory length.

(Doesn't kick the bejeesus out of you on the bench, either......

------------------
"Be not afraid of any man, no matter what his size;

When trouble rises, call on me and I will equalize."

 

[Rocklobster]

Try challenging someone with an M1A at some 600M targets with a .223.

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by In service to His Majesty:
The .223 is used solely in a law enforcement context where engagements are always 100 yds or less. Within this short distance, the bullet is not only flat but the effects of crosswind are nearly nil. Take a .223 out to 500 yds and beyond in a moderate crosswind, and the light bullet gets bucked like a rookie cowboy on a wild stallion. Also, believe it or not, there is the "flinch factor." Law enforcement applications require a bullet to strike the medulla oblongata (tiny area at the base of the brain) to instantly incapacitate a hostake taker who may have a gun to somebody's head. A rifleman cannot afford to anticipate the recoil of a .308 and possibly throw the shot. Overpenetration is another matter; what lies beond the perpetrator? A .223 will do far less damage after passing through the perp than a .308. So, in short, the .223 is ideal in LE situations at 100 yds or less.

To sum it all up, you would never use a .223 to reach out and somebody.

Really??? Used "soley in Law Enforcement"???
What was that again...

The .223 is used solely in a law enforcement context where engagements are always 100 yds or less.

When did the Marine's, and Army start using 7.62 M16's? Or should the question be... When was the Main Battle Rifle for the US Military relegated "SOLELY" to Law Enforcement use?

Wow? For that matter... Why is it that the Army/Marines use a 300 meter Battlesight zero for the M16A2, a 250 meter Battlesight zero for the M16A1 .223's?

Does this assume that neither service feels the .223 is capable of accurate shots beyond 100 yards?

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by jaydee:
context

That's the operative word here: context. I wrote in a law enforcement context. I did not throw out a blanket indictment of the .223.

After all, it does have it uses...rabbit, groundhog, squirrel, possum...but how it got into the Armed Forces inventory is completely beyond me.

Rob

 

[jaydee]

Originally posted by In service to His Majesty:
That's the operative word here: context. I wrote in a law enforcement context.

Well, in "Most Law Enforcement" context's, many of their encounters are at 100 yards or less, and even when deploying a .308, or 300 WinMag, LE Tactical Sniper's tend to operate at 100 yard or less, so it's not simply a factor of the .223.

In Fact, most LE Sniper's don't use the .223, opting for the .308, and in some cases, the 300 WM because of downrange terminal ballistics. It's much more effective against Hard Targets like Auto Glass, and such at 100 yards than the .223

 

[In service to His Majesty]

Originally posted by jaydee:
In Fact, most LE Sniper's don't use the .223, opting for the .308, and in some cases, the 300 WM because of...hard Targets like Auto Glass

It's all about choice really. I would not use a .308 or .300WM as a law enforcement close-in round. Nearly all barricaded gunman scenarios are urban. You see SWAT teams converving on houses all time, responding to these calls.

What's behind the perpetrator? A .223 will do a magnificent job on a skull at 100 yds. So will the .30s, but they will also exit the perp's head, crash through a wall or two, and kill little Susie as she is eating her bowl of Frosted Flakes while watching Bugs Bunny. These are just too dangerous for urban scenarios.

Again, it's only my opinion. I'm not a police tactics expert, nor do I play one on TV.

Rob

[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-31-2001).]

 

[Mute]

I think a law enforcement sniper is more likely to have to defeat a barrier for a shot than a military sniper. I wouldn't even think of trying a shot like that with a .223.