[SamColtFan]

Hi Guys,
Heres one for the books. I looked at a 1911A1 Remington Rand today. Slide was Remington marked "Syracuse NY USA". Frame had "FJA" inspector mark. Right side of frame said "United States Property" and "M1911 A1 US ARMY" and here's the kicker: Serial NO. 930537 which is a 1943 Colt number. Pistol is not arsenal refinished, nor have the numbers been restamped. Numbers are of the block type not Colt italic type. O in No is underlined. Frame is 1911A1 configuration not 1911. What's the scoop on this pistol folks?

 

[dsk]

It's in the Colt/RR duplicate serial number range, which happened several times during World War Two. In other words, there is/was a Colt floating around with that same serial number as well. But that Remington Rand is indeed correct.

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

 

[SamColtFan]

Thanks dsk....
Gun was in fair shape, wrong slide release. $700.00.
Thanks,
Sam

 

[dsk]

Sounds a bit steep. The slide release wouldn't be too hard to find, but unless the rest of the gun is at least 90% I wouldn't pay more than $500.

BTW for a little bit of history, Remington Rand had a few teething problems regarding QC at the start of their production. In the spring of 1943 they shut down completely to get their act together, and when they resumed production a month or so later they began the S/N with NO (two large letters), as opposed to the earlier guns with No (underlined o). The gun you saw was one of the early ones.

Regarding the S/N duplication, it was just a good old-fashioned FUBAR resulting from four companies manufacturing M1911A1s for the government at the same time. Colt would be assigned one serial number range, and another to another company, and another, then a new range assigned to the Colt as the cycle completed. Now add good ol' human FUBAR to this, and you can see how it happened. There are Colts in the US&S range, Ithaca range, and Remington Rand range during 1943.

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

 

[SamColtFan]

Hello dsk.....
Good information! So what exactly was the serial range of duplication of the various contract guns? Was it the same range for all contract guns?

You're right on for the value of this particular Rem. As I held it $500 came to mind. $700 was too steep.

As long as I've got your attention, one other question comes to mind about barrels. I've noticed all of the new Colt 1991A1's and the XSE guns have barrels that look very similar to the old military barrels(narrow throat). Why the switch from the nice wide dependable barrel throats of the XS and earlier 91A1 guns?

Regards,
Sam

 

[dsk]

On my Website is a list of serial numbers, including the ones that Colt duplicated.
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1/SN.html

Regarding the new barrels, they are actually "dual-ramped". There is the standard wide throat, then a new narrow cut that makes it look like the old GI ramp at first glance. Word is that it works very well in feeding various bullet types.

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

 

[SamColtFan]

Thanks for the info dsk....
Really like the website. Very informative. Thanks for the update on the new Colt barrels.
Regards,
Sam

 

[Inspector Callahan]

Great thread.

 

[Ty]

Hey Sam,
One other note, there are three variations of slides on the RRs you need to pull out the old ruler and measure the length of the stamping on the slide. If its 1 and 3/8th its the second type and as Dana said the underline under the O in "NO" would indicate it pre shut down. The gun would have a better value then 500-700. You dont state finish but second type slide, pre shutdown RRs are collectible and can go for more then 700. I have seen as high as 1000 or more....just an fyi (DSK dont like RRs that make him bleed)

Cheers
Ty

------------------
Visit my 1911 site www.CoolGunSite.com

 

[SamColtFan]

Ty....
Thanks for the info. Writing on the slide looks differnt than the other Rems that I've seen. Looked more coarse with larger letters than the '43 Rem that I have. As for the finish, about 85 to 90 percent, but rough.
Regards,
Sam

 

[SamColtFan]

Ty....
Forgot to mention there are no circles around the grip screws on the plastic grips. Are these the correct grips for this particular Remington?
Regards,
Sam

 

[dsk]

Yes, those grips along with the larger slide logo signify the 2nd "generation" guns. With a replaced slide stop I'd still be iffy on $700. You might want to go back there and see if you can talk him down.

Basically, the slide markings are as follows:

First generation:
REMINGTON RAND
SYRACUSE, NEW YORK

2nd:
REMINGTON RAND
SYRACUSE, NY U.S.A.

3rd (and most common):
REMINGTON RAND
SYRACUSE, NY U.S.A.


------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

[This message has been edited by dsk (edited 08-17-2001).]

 

[SamColtFan]

Thank you one and all for the info.
Regards,
Sam

 

[SamColtFan]

Two more thing guys....should the slide stop be checkered or serrated on the the second generation gun? The magazine has the letter "L" stamped on top of the lip at the lower end of the magazine. Correct?
Regards,
Sam

 

[Ty]

Hi Sam,
On early RRs could be either on the slide stop. Also could have a singer mainspring housing which would be correct so might want to look close at that, RR used a lot of other contractors stuff in early production. Slide #3 measures 1 inch in length print vs #2 which is 1 3/8. I didnt mention the #3 measurement earlier.

Mag is correct. (L)Little was used by Remington Rand, Ithaca, and US&S

Cheers
Ty

------------------
Visit my 1911 site www.CoolGunSite.com

 

[dsk]

Re: my post in General Discussion regarding fakes, the first production Remington Rands are the fakers' choice for making a faux Singer. The reason for this is the fact that Singer's machinery was handed over to Remington Rand once the war broke out (Singer chose to accept a contract to manufacture fire control directors (instead of more M1911A1s) during WW2). For this reason the first batch of RRs had the same checkered mainspring housing and other unique parts as the Singer, at least until the tooling wore out and was replaced.

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1

 

[SamColtFan]

Thanks much!
Regards,
SCF

 

[Ty]

yup! and the only thing left to say is whom else supplied parts.....

They purchased barrels from High Standard, Colt, and Springfield Armory; Disconnectors from US&S; Grips safeties from Colt; and Slide stops from Colt and Springfield Armory

I think this prety much covers everything you want to know about Remington Rand war production!

Cheers
Ty

------------------
Visit my 1911 site www.CoolGunSite.com

 

[SamColtFan]

Not quite Ty, one other question for you all. Slide logo is 1 and 3/8 inches. Looked at the barrel today and as I recall there was an S over an F in block letters on the left lug. Nothing on the hood on top. Could I have misread it to be S H or what do you think? Also this one does have the Singer backstrap. The Deal is in the negotiating stage at this point. Made an offer, we'll see.
Regards,
Sam

[This message has been edited by SamColtFan (edited 08-17-2001).]

 

[dsk]

That is one of the Springfield barrels. BTW Ty forgot to mention that Flannery Bolt Co. also made barrels that Remington Rand and Ithaca used on occasion during later production. They are marked with an F on the right lug (High Standard barrels are marked HS, oddly enough).

Okay Ty, did we miss anything else?

------------------
D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1