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Discussion Starter #1
I have long considered Condition 3 not unreasonable with proper practice for self-defense. After all, it was employed for years with our troops and the Israelis. You can even read a few arguements on this forum in favor of it.

This morning I completely changed my mind. While driving to work a vehicle pulled out in front of me from a side street in a 45 mph zone giving me little time to react and almost causing a rear end collision. I reacted by simply turning on my high beams (even though it was daylight) and then I calmly drove on.

Next thing you know, the driver pulled along side my vehicle in a line of traffic and started calling me all sorts of names and challenging me to a fight in a nearby parking lot. He then violently pulled into the lot and I drove forward and away.

Then the angry driver sped up to my vehicle again and started cursing me and challenging me to a fight. I then told him that I was a former police officer and that he was about to be arrested (meaning I would call police on my cell phone). He said he didn't care that I was a former police officer, cursed me some more and then sped off.

I then reflected on the incident and decided I did the right thing by not stopping and engaging in a fight with this lunatic. Although I train weekly in the martial arts and have done so for many years, this would have been used against me in a court of law, because I had an avenue of escape. I would have been charged.

Although I spent 10 years of my life as a police officer responding to many violent situations, my adrenalin was still high this morning and I finally concluded that had the situation escalated to a life threatening level, the last thing on my mind would be racking a slide! In my law enforcement days we used revolvers and were trained to draw and fire in a fraction of 1 second, period.

I am now convinced that if you carry a 1911 your adrenaline will be so high in a real life threatening situation that you absolutely will not be thinking about racking a slide when the SHTF!

All of you are correct. Condition 1 is the only way to go on the streets of America. I stand corrected.
 

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You are too patient

You should have called 911 as soon as he pulled up and commenced yelling, or at least not later than when he pulled in to that lot. Don't tell people anything about yourself, either - just call 911 and at least make a record of letting the cops deal with this A-H.

But very good point about condition 1.
 

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I have long considered Condition 3 not unreasonable with proper practice for self-defense. After all, it was employed for years with our troops and the Israelis. You can even read a few arguements on this forum in favor of it.
You can also read some very strong arguments against it here as well. The reason that the Israellis and US military employ condition 3 is because they are liability conscious and do not trust their own troops with loaded weapons. This is hardly something to emulate

Although I train weekly in the martial arts and have done so for many years, this would have been used against me in a court of law, because I had an avenue of escape. I would have been charged.
If you got out of the car to face him, you would have been escalating the situation. If he attacked you in the car while you were stuck in traffic, it would have been a different situation.

Also imagine if he broke your window and assaulted you while you were stuck in the car. Do you think you would have two hands to reliably rack the slide? What if he made a grab for the gun when you were fumbling to rack around in the chamber while trapped in an awkward position in the confined space of a car?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Good point Doug. I was quite upset and I guess I just reacted in the heat of battle. You're absolutely correct.

In my young and less mature days I would have probably fought the guy.
 

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Maybe it's just me, but I'm confused as to how a road rage incident has anything to do with justifying a certain type of carry condition, any more than it has to do with whether an SA trigger, DA/SA or DAO trigger would be best, or whether a Glock would have been better than a 1911.

You're in a moving vehicle. If you don't have the time or the dexterity to rack a slide before you come to a stop and get involved in a confrontation, there's probably a pretty good chance it doesn't matter at that point. :confused:

I know a lot of things can happen and situations can change quickly, but you flashed your brights at the guy, which is what obviously set him off. I'm not making an excuse for the other guy being an A-hole and cutting you off in the first place. I am also most certainly not sayign you were wrong for flashing your brights. You could have even blown your horn if you wanted to.

When I personally reflect on your situation, I think that a better argument could be made for simply not even bothering with some A-hole that cuts you off in traffic in the first place. Where does it really get you? What if the guy was a complete psychopath and simply pulled along side of you and started shooting instead of just yelling?
 

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kevins-garage, excellent assessment of the situation. Pretty much what I was thinking. If I bright light somebody or flash them the bird I`m issuing a challenge and can assume that it is likely to be met. Unless it`s an old lady in a Buick. :biglaugh:
 

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The very best fights (for me) are the ones I avoid......learned that from a few years of marriage. ;)

Having said that, one can never be too ready if and when the S-should-HTF. Sure things could have been different for you in terms of choices and actions, but the whole situation was what it was....for you and for them. If you have picked up something that might help you down the line in a different situation or circumstance, like avoiding the damn thing altogether, grabbing your cell phone first, or to be C & L and ready to rip....so be it. Thanks for sharing. Mull all this over and......

Be safe, choose wisely, shoot well. :rock:
 

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Come to think of it. This could be one of those times where a CCW badge could have come in real handy.

I couldn't resist the temptation. Sorry. :(
 

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In my dumb younger days when I felt invincible and didn't know any better, and some idiot would cut me off or do something similar, I was very quick to lean on my horn, flash my lights and/or even glare at him/her.

Only within the last couple of years have I changed what would have been my initial reactions to someone else's bad driving. I've now come to realize that after having worked hard all my life, raising a family, having kids that are now grown up and married and it's just my wife and I, that it's just not worth the satisfaction of reacting in a way that might provoke a road rage situation. It could result in a tragic outcome that I would regret for the rest of my days.

I of course believe in defensive driving and if I have to, will beep the horn if it will help prevent an almost otherwise unavoidable collision, parking lot, roadway, etc.

You never know what kind of day the other driver is having, whether or not they're carrying, what kind of person they are, whether they're driving under the influence, etc., etc.

I will also say that if without any provocation on my part, my life and/or my wife's life is placed in jeopardy, I will defend us as I have been trained. I always carry Condition 1.
 

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My opinion is that when I carry a concealed handgun, I must be very meek in public. I avoid all confrontation and do not pick fights. I do not speed, I do not cut people off, I do not turn on my highbeams at people, I do not give people the finger, I do not get into shouting arguments, I don't bully people, etc. If somebody cuts me off in traffic, I let it go and don't escalate the situation.

Firing your weapon from a car (moving or otherwise) could land you in serious trouble. If you are in a vehicle, driving away from the bad situation is usually the best option.

In my state, there was a case of a road rage driver who threw a drink cup at another car and was charged with a major offense (vehicular projectile assault or something to that effect). Fire a gun from a car, and you might be facing prison time.
 

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My opinion is that when I carry a concealed handgun, I must be very meek in public. I avoid all confrontation and do not pick fights. I do not speed, I do not cut people off, I do not turn on my highbeams at people, I do not give people the finger, I do not get into shouting arguments, I don't bully people, etc.
Very wise words of wisdom:rock:. Nothing is more overwhelming to an aggressor than when the prey turns out to be the hunter.
 

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My opinion is that when I carry a concealed handgun, I must be very meek in public. I avoid all confrontation and do not pick fights. I do not speed, I do not cut people off, I do not turn on my highbeams at people, I do not give people the finger, I do not get into shouting arguments, I don't bully people, etc. If somebody cuts me off in traffic, I let it go and don't escalate the situation.

Firing your weapon from a car (moving or otherwise) could land you in serious trouble. If you are in a vehicle, driving away from the bad situation is usually the best option.

In my state, there was a case of a road rage driver who threw a drink cup at another car and was charged with a major offense (vehicular projectile assault or something to that effect). Fire a gun from a car, and you might be facing prison time.
That was about a year ago, right? Sadly, I live in the same state, and the other thing we would have to consider is the duty to retreat, or driving away until either:
a) the self-centered nutjob decides to go on her/his not-so-merry way, or,
b) runs you off the road or is driving a big enough piece of junk s/he rams you.
Most of the time a) will occur, but you can never be too sure.
 

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Im guessing the former police thing scared him away real fast. You did the right thing. The only thing you should have done but was get his tag number and call it in. Tell them he said he was going to kill you:biglaugh:.. The point is make him think twice before acting like a fool... Like you said its harder to think in a heated moment like that..

This gets me to thinking.. If that guy would have came over to your car and assulted you and you shot him that would be self defence wouldnt it? Looks like the law would have been on your side..
In my state your car or truck is an etension of your home! So if someone comes into it to harm me or my family I can shoot him dead!
 

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I make it a point of honor to "smile and wave" if some other driver is flipping out. No matter what. You never know what is happening. They might be a total A-hole, they might just have lost a wife or kid, or a job, or be drugged up and nuts. Or just had a lousy day and traffic made them boil over.

Smiling and waving disarms most of them, and gives the rest nothing to pin their anger on.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Maybe it's just me, but I'm confused as to how a road rage incident has anything to do with justifying a certain type of carry condition, any more than it has to do with whether an SA trigger, DA/SA or DAO trigger would be best, or whether a Glock would have been better than a 1911.

You're in a moving vehicle. If you don't have the time or the dexterity to rack a slide before you come to a stop and get involved in a confrontation, there's probably a pretty good chance it doesn't matter at that point. :confused:

I know a lot of things can happen and situations can change quickly, but you flashed your brights at the guy, which is what obviously set him off. I'm not making an excuse for the other guy being an A-hole and cutting you off in the first place. I am also most certainly not sayign you were wrong for flashing your brights. You could have even blown your horn if you wanted to.

When I personally reflect on your situation, I think that a better argument could be made for simply not even bothering with some A-hole that cuts you off in traffic in the first place. Where does it really get you? What if the guy was a complete psychopath and simply pulled along side of you and started shooting instead of just yelling?
Sorry for the confusion. The reason I brought up the carry condition is to illustrate that I am now convinced that this is the best mode in case, for example the guy ran over to my car and pulled a gun on me and there was no avenue of escape. Obviously you would never draw your weapon unless it was a life or death situation with no avenue of escape and no time for law enforcement to respond before emminent tragedy. In the past, before my adrenalin went into the stratosphere this morning I was buying into all the nice stories about how one has more than sufficient time to rack the slide and chamber a round. When you're in a real SHTF encounter and you develop tunnel vision real quick, all you think about is avoiding becoming a statistic. Point and pull then becomes your quickest and best option.
 

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At the first time the purp came back I think I would have:
Put mine in mode 1 (while keeping it out of sight), then IMMEDIATELY called 911.

Other than that, I think you did the right thing.
 

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This gets me to thinking.. If that guy would have came over to your car and assulted you and you shot him that would be self defence wouldnt it? Looks like the law would have been on your side..
In my state your car or truck is an etension of your home! So if someone comes into it to harm me or my family I can shoot him dead!
We had that exact scenario happen here in Dallas, TX a few years ago. The DA took it to the grand jury, arguing that the shooter was not in deadly danger, therefore no deadly force was justified. The grand jury "no billed" him.

Hank
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Im guessing the former police thing scared him away real fast. You did the right thing. The only thing you should have done but was get his tag number and call it in. Tell them he said he was going to kill you:biglaugh:.. The point is make him think twice before acting like a fool... Like you said its harder to think in a heated moment like that..

This gets me to thinking.. If that guy would have came over to your car and assulted you and you shot him that would be self defence wouldnt it? Looks like the law would have been on your side..
In my state your car or truck is an etension of your home! So if someone comes into it to harm me or my family I can shoot him dead!
If the guy came over to my car and simply tried to assault me without a weapon, I would not have drawn any gun. In that case, time permitting I would have called police on my cell, and then taken the guy down without deadly force until police arrived. This is why I have trained in martial arts every week for years. You can train for 20 years for one incident. We also use a variety of non-lethal weapons designed to control without using deadly force. If he pulled a gun or a knife on me, well now that changes everything doesn't it? In police work we were trained to use only necessary force to effect the arrest. In self-defense my belief is to use only necessary force to stop the aggression. Necessary force might be a 1911, or it might be a joint lock depending on the level of attack.
 
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