1911Forum banner

Which flashlight technique do you prefer?

  • Harris

    Votes: 23 59.0%
  • Surefire-Rogers

    Votes: 9 23.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 7 17.9%
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
873 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Rogers vs Harries Flashlight Technique

Okay, I'm not interested in starting any debates here, but I'm curious how the Rogers technique came to fruition?

I just purchased a Surefire 6PN but I was starting to purchase a Z2, mainly because the FBI/USMS, etc. give this flashlight to all their new agents.

I guess what changed my mind was the look of the Z2. I was confused as to how this was the 'best' technique to use with a handgun. Finally, I found some pictures of the what the Rogers technique is and well, I obviously decided against it.

While searching around the 'net for the above info, I ran across a story from one of the gun magazines, about some amateur shooter managed to discharge his weapon while in the process of applying the Rogers technique. This aspect of the technique really convinced me that the Harries technique might be more reliable (to me.)

IMO, I believe the Harries technique to be much more comfortable. The wrist lock really helps maintain a steady hand for the firearm and flashlight. Also, I don't see any chance of discharging a firearm accidentally here.

So, my question is what precipitated this change from Harries to Rogers? Also, which technique is being taught more often? Do agencies stress one versus the other, or is it more of a personal choice?

Also, I posted a poll for users to post which method they prefer.

*Corrected the post to "Harries"... sorry, I heard it as "Harris"


-Nick
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
877 Posts
Uh, first I believe it's "Harries."

Anyway, I think they both work fine . . . if you can do them effectively. I've tried the Harries and I can't do it because of the way my body is built. I rely primarily on the "light held on the jawline" because it works for me and I can actually hit my target.

I've tried the Rogers deal with the Z-series SureFire (the one with three batteries) and I have to say it works a lot better than I thought. The thing is, you need to have that kind of light to do it effectively, so you always have yours with you. But you should give it a try some time to see what you're missing.

The other techniques have the advantage that you can use just any kind of light.

Another thing is that the Harries technique is made a bit more complicated when you have to shoot around cover from different sides.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,926 Posts
rhino465 said:
Another thing is that the Harries technique is made a bit more complicated when you have to shoot around cover from different sides.
To expand on this a little, a right handed shooter clearing around the left side of a barricade or corner will find that the Harries technique requires him to extend an excessive distance out from cover to clear the light. Turning the light on prior to clearing it around the barricade may result in temporary blinding of the shooter if the light is powerful and the barricade is light colored.
Consequently, I switch back and forth between Harries and an alternative technique when in a dark shoot house. The alternative technique may vary, but if I am using a Surefire Z style light, it is usually Rogers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
769 Posts
I've always known it as the Rogers Method vs the Surefire/Rogers. I don't think there is a singular best flashlight technique over another. Circumstances dictate which flashlight method is best. It's a good idea to train them all, having each in your toolbox.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
I agree that no one technique is better than the others, providing you have the right light to use. The kicker is to pick one or two and PRACTICE with it that way.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,948 Posts
Mayonaise said:
It's a good idea to train them all, having each in your toolbox.
Right.

Under most conditions however, I will start with a Harries grip. Until the situation is assessed, this allows a better grip if there is a chance that you may need to use your light as an impact weapon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
Oh I agree Shane, I do too. But it's more for the reason that that was the first technique I was trained with and became more familiar with it. But the principal of using the light fallls by the wayside now, since 99% of the time, I'm using one of the smaller lights now.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,342 Posts
After a decade of playing with these techniques and several night-fire classes (Suarez,Hack, Langdon,Stanford) I have settled on neither.

I realize that armed with a handgun and faced with "dim light", even with a surefire, chances are that any shooting will be VERY close, definitely under 10 yards.

After playing with the Sure Fire technique, which is light to side of head or under left eye and strong hand/weak hand shooting only, I find that I am more accurate and less prone to fumble light switches using any other technique.

YMMV, and don't forget to quickly move after illuminating your threat..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,837 Posts
What difference does type of light make?

I think I understand the techniques -- Harries is back of hands against each other, Rogers light held somewhere against the face (jawline, cheekbone).

What I don't understand is what difference the lights make. Why won't a 6P (which I just ordered) work as well as a light with that rubber ring around it, other than a somewhat more secure grip with the ring?

Thanks.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
10,926 Posts
You don't understand the Rogers technique. It's a 2 handed shooting technique. It's also called the cigar or syringe technique. The light goes between the fingers, either above or below the third finger, of your support hand. The pushbutton goes into the palm of the hand. You then use that hand as a support hand, as normally as possoble, and turn the light on by pulling it into the palm. The thinned area and the rubber rings of the Z series lights facilitate this.
I forget the name of the technique where you shoot one handed, and hold the light by your face. The P series will work just fine for that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,681 Posts
First and formost here it must be remembered that what is best is what ever works best for you, and not someone else. Second is practice, parctice, practice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,019 Posts
Truthfully, I prefer neither but would choose the Harries over the SF/Rogers simply because the latter doesn't allow for a very secure hold, in my opinion. Of course, if you're shooting a revolver, expect to get some fire on your hand if you use a Harries.:D

For some reason, my body just naturally falls in to the neck-index light hold and this seems to be the fastest, surest thing for me. I always had a problem timing my movements with the Harries so I didn't sweep my weakhand with the muzzle.

Learning to shoot well with one hand only is a critical skill. By keeping the hands separate, with the weakhand in a high position, it is easy to move into a block or strike if the situation required.

That's my thinking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
Re: What difference does type of light make?

JohnCollins said:
I think I understand the techniques -- Harries is back of hands against each other, Rogers light held somewhere against the face (jawline, cheekbone).

What I don't understand is what difference the lights make. Why won't a 6P (which I just ordered) work as well as a light with that rubber ring around it, other than a somewhat more secure grip with the ring?

Thanks.
The only real difference might come from the days when the 3 and 4 D cell aluminum Mag lights became popular. Because of their length and sturdiness, the SOMETIMES, although never officially, tended to be used as a baton in some situations. The smaller lights used today kinda make that hard to do.

In techniques where the light is held in one hand and the pistol in the other, whether the hands were back to back or the light kept close to your face, made it easier to swing the heavier longer lights if the situation did not warrant the use of the pistol.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,837 Posts
Thanks, Mr. Burke!

That explanation makes perfect sense out of the rings on the light.

I'm going to have to get with someone who has done this to get some training. It sounds awkward to me, but they sell a lot of those lights, so it must have merit. Gonna have to practice a few different methods, I guess. Which can be fun!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
569 Posts
Re: Thanks, Mr. Burke!

JohnCollins said:
That explanation makes perfect sense out of the rings on the light.

I'm going to have to get with someone who has done this to get some training. It sounds awkward to me, but they sell a lot of those lights, so it must have merit. Gonna have to practice a few different methods, I guess. Which can be fun!
And that's the exact way to approach it. Try the different methods until you find one that's comfortable and capable for YOU. Good luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,101 Posts
Re: Re: What difference does type of light make?

ddstanle said:
Because of their length and sturdiness, the SOMETIMES, although never officially, tended to be used as a baton in some situations.
I never knew it was unofficial. I had a couple friends catch some wicked beat downs from Maglites back in the 90s.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
14,948 Posts
Unofficially of course, even the smaller 2-cell Surefires can be used as effective impact and pain-compliance tools, and as I indicated above - that is the reason I typically prefer the Harries grip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Geometry

It's all about geometry. Where's the corner you're trying to clear? Don't get so stuck on one technique that you can't adapt.

If everything's open ahead of you (probably shouldn't stay there!) use whatever's most comfortable/familiar. If you're trying to see around a corner or obstacle then put the light where it needs to be to illuminate.

I'm right handed, so clearing a right corner will be uncrossed for me. A left corner will be crossed. These make sure the light is the first thing around the corner.

The whole point of the Z series lights is that they also allow the syringe technique. This adds the advantage of the last two fingers (ring and pinkie) still able to support your weapon grip.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
745 Posts
Some food for thought.....

There are always flaws in any technique. But I thought I would post some knowledge gained from my departments "building-entry" classes, which should be called building-clearing classes. These are conducted at night with simunitions glocks, full gear, etc. When you have perps shouting at you, running, shooting at you, etc. the pulse rate climbs and many techniques flaws become evident.

With the surefire technique, a potential problem is a phenomenon (sp?) known as sympathetic muscle reaction, when the actions of one muscle mimic those of the opposite muscle. When the off-hand squeezes the base of the light into the palm, it is very similar to a trigger stroke (i.e. closing of fingers to palm), when the pulse rate rises and fine muscle control shuts down, this can result in an unintentional discharge, especially if startled. Which is pretty likely in the dark. You may be "fire-flying" for movement, or activating the light to illuminate a pos threat, when this happens.

Do some of these classes or watch some of the "dash-cam videos" and you'll see the problem, with holding your light near you face. EVERYONE instictively shoots for the light! When the adrenaline dump comes, you shoot for the target, the light. When you hold that light by your head, you get shot in the head. It has happened to a Deputy in my Department! He lived, I've talked to him, and heard the radio transmissions, etc.

In the end, use what works for you. Just remember that the beam from that surefire/streamlight/pelican/etc broadcasts your position, so use it sparingly. And be aware that there is no perfect technique for every situation.

Improvise, adapt, overcome....

-Hershey

P.S. Sorry to take so much space!:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
261 Posts
For me the Rogers works fine when used with my 1911 but completely falls arart with a Jframe gun. Because of the difference in soxe and shape of the little J frame grip my hand wraps around it in a different way than with my 1911's. This ends up shining the light at about knee level! For that reason I prefer the Harries becaue I can use it the same with any gun.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top