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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I shot a IDPA match this weekend and saw a shooter that has won regional matches as a master show up as an expert,with the same gun. He uses a Beretta Elite I for SSP as a Master. He added an extended Mag release(which moves the gun to ESP because the extended mag release only comes on the Elite II) and shot as a expert in ESP with the same gun.

Something needs to be done in IDPA with a National Classification.
 

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STOCK SERVICE PISTOL
98.82 or less Master
98.83 - 120.00 Expert
120.01 - 152.73 Sharpshooter
152.74 - 210.00 Marksman
210.01 or more Novice
ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL
89.41 or less Master
89.42 - 108.57 Expert
108.58 - 138.18 Sharpshooter
138.19 - 190.00 Marksman
190.01 or more Novice

As copied from the IDPA website. Just being the devils advocate here, was his classifier time below 98.83 and above 89.41? There is basically 10 seconds there where you are a Master in SSP but only a Expert in ESP, using the same gun. I know several who shoot SSP Expert, but when a big match comes up, shoot ESP Sharpshooter. Almost 12 second gap there.

What would you, or anyone else for that matter, propose for changes to the classification system?


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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thats what I'm saying, it needs to be fixed.
 

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And I am asking how would you do it.

Would you make every level the same, i.e., 95 and below Master, 110 and below Expert, and so on for all divisions? Make it a rule that once you made Expert, Sharpshooter or whatever in any division, you are that in all divisions? It's one thing to be fustrated with a problem and something else to try and come up with a solution to it that works for a lot of different people.

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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think that the only guns allowed in SSP should be Double Action only. Glocks,Para,beretta D,etc. Take the beretta Elite II. On the way up to the target you stage the trigger. On a single action you release the safety. After the first shot they are equal.

So, revolvers in SSR, Double action only in SSP, All minor power factors in ESP, and all Major power in CDP.

What do you think?
 

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Now we are getting somewhere.


As I understand it, you would eliminate the possibility of using the same gun in two different classes at two different levels. Example, Shooting a G17 in SSP as Expert, and ESP as Sharpshooter would no longer be possible. Would the gamer guns,i.e., G34 and G35 and the Beretta Elite's would only be in ESP?

One of the original ideas behind IDPA was for anyone to be able to shoot in multiple divisions with the same gun, be it, SSP, ESP, or CDP, depending on caliber. I personally think there would be a lot of resistance to this. As one who only competes with 1911's, it would have no effect on me at all.

As far as I can tell, I do not think there is much difference between Leatham, Sevigny, and Langdon with respect to skill. They are Masters of their sport. I also do not think there would be a major change in their classifier times if they changed pistols to another type. For that reason, I think the times for classification need to be changed to be more inline with each other. ESP and SSP times should be the same from class to class. No need for a 12 second hole between ESP expert and SSP expert. Split the difference between them and make them the same. With that, it does not matter what gun you use, it is how well you use it, and that's what it is supposed to be about.




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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
John, That sounds right.As an example I have shot the classifier three times this year. I missed expert in ESP by 2,3,and 5 seconds. I shot well each time with no malfuntions. I bought a Elite II,as soon as it came I took it to a match which happened to be a classifier. I made expert in SSP by .45 seconds. When I compared the times between my 1911's and the elite they were close with a little practice with the Beretta, they would be as good.


When these times were developed,I don't think glocks had 2.5lb triggers and Ernie wasn't bringing the Berettas down to 5-6lb DA and Para didn't have the 2.5lb DAO.There wasn't a G34,G35, or Elites.

The times need to be adjusted to keep up with the guns that are being used. Then shoot it in which ever class you want. As log as it makes the PF for that division.

[This message has been edited by JoeMc (edited 10-30-2001).]
 

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Personally I think SSP should have a minimum first shot trigger pull like in IPSC Prod.

I'm still a little bitter because in the last rule book my gun got bumped from SSP to ESP. Here's my logic behind this.

A Glock with a 3.5 lbs trigger has the weight trigger pull same as a HK P7. The amount of trigger travel in the Glock is shorter than the P7. The reset on the Glock is shorter also. Yet, Glocks can be in SSP and ESP, and CDP, but the P7 can only be used in ESP not SSP.

What's strange is the P7 is allowed in IPSC Prod even though there's a min. first shot trigger pull and the stock trigger is below that weight. I guess they include squeeze cocker weight.
 

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I think one of the additional items that should be looked at is another level of classification in IDPA. There is a huge difference between the top shooters and bottom of the master division. Just like USPSA recognizing a GrandMaster division, I think it may be time to add one to IDPA. My time on the classifier was a 72.92 with my CDP. Significant difference between that and guys that just make it.
I also think that whatever class you shoot with one gun should automatically class you in that with all the guns.

One thing I was disappointed in at the IDPA nationals was the illegal equipment. If we are going to have equipment rules lets follow them. I saw worse examples there than I have at a lot of club matches.

Take care,


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Matt Burkett
http://www.mattburkett.
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480-949-1553
 

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Matt, I agree with you on the idea of having a "GrandMaster" Classification. As someone who is just on the border of EXP/MA I'm not particularly looking forward to that step into the Master Class, because I know that my chances of winning/placing at any major match are going to be pretty low. I mean.. I look at Rob Leatham's National score and mine and I think.. "how the heck do I drop 60 seconds off of my time??"

However, I disagree with the idea that classing in one division should automatically put you in the same class in other divisions. ESPECIALLY Revolver... Probably most of the semi-auto divisions really wouldn't matter that much, but there is a BIG difference with revolver..

I'm curious about what equipment violations you saw at nationals.. I didn't see or hear about hardly any.. please expound.

It's good having you on the board and involved in IDPA.

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While I respect Matt's opinion I disagree. If you're a Master and consistantly shoot at the top level what difference does it make about the other Masters shooting at the bottom? I mean, where do you draw the line? We'd then be disecting each division wouldn't we?

Regarding the nationals and equipment. Hmm I must have missed something. Our squad was checked on several stages for equipment. However, there was that one incident... Nah I won't go there... :p
 

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Mayo, yes dissecting the class is exactly what would be fair. This would be especially important at major matches.

I think after reviewing the thoughts on the same classification for all classes, your probably somewhat right on the revolver. Although, as an example, I point to Mark Hanish. He has won two revolver championships, never having shot the revolver before the competition. In fact, we got to make fun of him after the first stage where he tried to load the 6 shot gun with a 5 shot speed loader. We still haven't forgiven him for that one! BTW he won revolver in his first match by something like 80 seconds!
Things to think about.

I won't comment on the infractions I saw at the Nationals. I just hope the same thing doesn't occur again. :)

Best of luck out there.

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Matt Burkett
http://www.mattburkett.
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480-949-1553
 

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I like the idea of another classification. While this is all hypothetical, how about;

ENHANCED AND STOCK SERVICE PISTOL
82.50 or less Grand Master
82.51 - 95.00 Master
95.01 - 112.50 Expert
112.51 - 130.00 Sharpshooter
130.01 - 190.00 Marksman
190.01 or more Novice

Times for CDP and SSR would need to be modified accordingly. I would leave equipment rules as they are, except of course moving 10mm and .400 CorBon back to CDP.

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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Because they don't accept emails.
Doom on them!

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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken
 

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Shoot, they never even responded to my snail mail about moving 10mm back to CDP. The great wall in China must be small in comparison to the one around Berryville.

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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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I think Headhunter just called your hands John Forsyth.
 

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Originally posted by Ricky T:
I think Headhunter just called your hands John Forsyth.
No problem.
For IDPA, 10mm is just a long .40 S&W.

Claude, drop me an email.

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John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995
 

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Originally posted by John Forsyth:
No problem.
For IDPA, 10mm is just a long .40 S&W.
What I found was that 400CB is a powder hog. I had to run 9/10ths grain more powder than a 40 just to make power factor. That's why I want some gamer 10mm loads.

Email on the way.



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Claude
Shooterscoach.com
 
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