Scout Rifle Comments???
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I'm very happy with mine. The fact that it's so light has both pros and cons. It's no problem to haul around all day, but the recoil is a bit more pronounced, but still not bad. Mine has the Leupold Scout IER sope on it, and the accuracy is great. If you decide to get one, I think you'll enjoy it.
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I do not own a scout rifle. My personal feeling is that this is a supply looking for a demand, instead of the other way around.
If you are determined to get a scout rifle, I would suggest looking at the Savage. It is about 1/5 or 1/6 the cost of the Steyr.
Please keep in mind that the only one in the firearms community so adamantly pushing the scout concept has been COL Jeff Cooper. He has a business arrangement with Steyr. Talk about a conflict of interest....
I personally just don't get it: if you want to engage targets out to 300 meters, go with iron sights. 300 and beyond, go with a traditionally scoped rifle. If you are a true cavalry scout looking for approaching enemy soldiers and vehicles, acquire the target(s) through binoculars.
This whole scout concept sounds as if it were invented by infomercial king Ron Popiel (Ronco founder). I can just see the infomercial now: "A rifle that not only engages the enemy close up, but far away. Survey the landscape for approaching enemy soldiers, too. Yes, my friends. This rifle does it all. And what would you expect this nifty little package to cost you? $10,000? No. $7,500? Nope. How about a very reasonable $5,000? No, my friends. You can get this rifle for the unbelievably low price of $3,000!" Instantly above stage, the little "Ooooooooooohhhhhh" light comes on to prompt the audience to feign an overwhelming sense of disbelief. Ron finally chimes in with, "Hurry while supplies last. This amazing offer won't last long."
Gimme a freakin' break.
Oh, this is the best one: COL Cooper was recently on one of the weekend morning shooting shows. I think it might have been the one on TNN. Anyway, Cooper was "demonstrating" his beloved Steyr Scout. He couldn't hit s**t with it. What a joke. I actually laughed out loud while I was watching the show. A $3,000 rifle in the hands of a huckster who couldn't hit jack. It was hilarious. Hell, it really should have been Ron Popiel shooting the rifle. He couldn't have done any worse.
Rob
[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-27-2001).]
The scout stock seems to be way to poorly made IMO. Also seems to be way overpriced. Even at the supposedly cheap 1500.00 I have seen.
I have a SBS 26" HB Tactical model that is an extremely accurate and reliable rifle. I had to replace the factory stock with a McMillan A-3 because the factory one is so flexible and poor though. Steyr's factory synthetic stocks have always been bad as near as I can tell.
If you are determined to have a scout rifle I think the Savage is a better deal for a factory gun.
There was an article in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement a while back (2 years ago?) about building a scout rifle using a surplus Mauser action. Whole job including scope was about 400.00 Might be worth considering.
I have a SBS 26" HB Tactical model that is an extremely accurate and reliable rifle. I had to replace the factory stock with a McMillan A-3 because the factory one is so flexible and poor though. Steyr's factory synthetic stocks have always been bad as near as I can tell.
If you are determined to have a scout rifle I think the Savage is a better deal for a factory gun.
There was an article in Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement a while back (2 years ago?) about building a scout rifle using a surplus Mauser action. Whole job including scope was about 400.00 Might be worth considering.
If I could scare up the cash I'd have one, if my financial situation improves I WILL have one. I fell in love with the one I handled, light and comes to the shoulder like lightning. I think the good Col. has put a lot of good brain sweat into the concept and like the versitility of the piece. I'm not interested in a whole safe full of guns, a few quality pieces that cover a wide variety of situations holds great appeal to me. Don't want to get into a flame war but as far as "in service's" unfavorable review of Col. Cooper, I hope he does as well at 80+ with back problems. I think the pool of taleted individuals such as Clint Smith who know and have high regard for him speaks for itself.
Manny
Manny
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Dear In Service,
You are probably correct that Col. Cooper is the only gun writer who has been pushing the scout concept. He's been doing it for many years and a long, long time before it was ever manufactured. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea, just that it isn't perhaps a very popular one among gun writers.
I wasn't aware that he had a financial arrangement with Steyr, but am happy for him to have found someone to manufacture his dream for him. Why shouldn't he be able to share in the rewards of an idea he developed? After all isn't that what free enterprise is all about? Developing a concept for a product or service and finding a way to produce and market it? The marketplace can now decide whether the scout is a viable concept desired by the shooting community. Stay safe, Gary
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What I want most from the government is to be left alone. GWT
You are probably correct that Col. Cooper is the only gun writer who has been pushing the scout concept. He's been doing it for many years and a long, long time before it was ever manufactured. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea, just that it isn't perhaps a very popular one among gun writers.
I wasn't aware that he had a financial arrangement with Steyr, but am happy for him to have found someone to manufacture his dream for him. Why shouldn't he be able to share in the rewards of an idea he developed? After all isn't that what free enterprise is all about? Developing a concept for a product or service and finding a way to produce and market it? The marketplace can now decide whether the scout is a viable concept desired by the shooting community. Stay safe, Gary
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What I want most from the government is to be left alone. GWT
"Popularity" is a measure of acceptence - not of quality or anything else. Cable TV is very popular - and about 90% (or more) of it is garbage. There is a lot of junk that is very popular in the gun trade too.
I don't think Col. Cooper's Steyr Scout is one of them. Probably the first thing many disregard is that it is conceptually a general purpose rifle. Not a sniper rifle, big game rifle, or varminter, etc; but rather one that will do all these things very well most of the time.
Having read Col. Cooper for several decades I have a hard time faulting his reason and logic on most things - and he draws on much relevant experience to back it up. In the realm of pistol shooting while many credit him with much of the advances in practical shooting I note that he himself has rendered credit where it is due. For this and other reasons I have a considerable amount of respect for him.
Certainly an 80 year old man having a bad day giving a shooting demonstration is hardly any basis to judge him or the rifle.
I don't think Col. Cooper's Steyr Scout is one of them. Probably the first thing many disregard is that it is conceptually a general purpose rifle. Not a sniper rifle, big game rifle, or varminter, etc; but rather one that will do all these things very well most of the time.
Having read Col. Cooper for several decades I have a hard time faulting his reason and logic on most things - and he draws on much relevant experience to back it up. In the realm of pistol shooting while many credit him with much of the advances in practical shooting I note that he himself has rendered credit where it is due. For this and other reasons I have a considerable amount of respect for him.
Certainly an 80 year old man having a bad day giving a shooting demonstration is hardly any basis to judge him or the rifle.
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Well, the problem is that he has not only outlived his usefulness, but his competency as well. A man like that needs to catch one in his prime, lest he become pathetic to the eyes of those like ISTHM.
The respect shown for him by Smith and the others is out of what he was, not what he is.
We can all wish for a better fate.
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Some say he is a Zen master....
Others say he is a ****head.
-John Overton
I may stand corrected here; but from what I understand, the Colonel's mind is still very sharp - and he is far from having "outlived his usefulness".
Carlos Hathcock was teaching Marine snipers how to do it best after his own physical abilities were falling away due to his previous injuries and failing health.
Old age may certainly usher in varying degrees of decline in many people, but I see nothing undignified about it. As long as the mind and means of communication are there; very useful and of exceptional value they can be.
Carlos Hathcock was teaching Marine snipers how to do it best after his own physical abilities were falling away due to his previous injuries and failing health.
Old age may certainly usher in varying degrees of decline in many people, but I see nothing undignified about it. As long as the mind and means of communication are there; very useful and of exceptional value they can be.
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I like your username..
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I think many of you have misunderstood my comments about COL Cooper. He was a great man. Too many people lend their names to things without fully investigating the situation. It's a little off subject, but Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous' Robin Leach got burned recently because he was doing voice spots for a tourism company that was scamming its customers. Did he have full knowledge of the scam or was he caught up in it unknowingly? It doesn't matter. His name has been stained either way.
What kind of testimonial/credibility did he give the Scout by missing nearly everything he shot at? If he weren't such a hog for the limelight, he would have chosen instead somebody who could demonstrate for the camera what the rifle was capable of. I think a hell of a lot more viewers would be more inclined to buy into a $3,000 rifle if the they saw the darned thing hitting some targets. The viewer at home was left thinking, "Hell, I can hit better with my $99 New England Firearms single shot!" His desire for face time put the final nail in the Steyr Scout coffin. All he worked for went down the toilet with his abysmal shooting "skills."
COL Cooper was on the forefront of the 10mm Auto cartridge, too. He worked hard for people to take notice of its capability. I personally think the 10mm is the best fighting handgun cartridge in existence, but where has it gone? It seems Cooper has the inverse Midas touch: everything he touches turns to crap (10mm and Steyr Scout).
What burns me more than anything is his complete lack of modesty. He does not know the word humility. He talks (writes) a lot of tough-guy talk, but when it came to shooting day he couldn't hit a barn at 5 paces. He reminds me of an 80 year-old man sitting in a bar and looking for a fist fight to relive his glory years. He needs to remove himself from the shooting community by retiring quietly, with dignity and humility.
A wise man knows when to gracefully bow out. COL Cooper and Michael Jordan need better advisors.
Rob
[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-28-2001).]
What kind of testimonial/credibility did he give the Scout by missing nearly everything he shot at? If he weren't such a hog for the limelight, he would have chosen instead somebody who could demonstrate for the camera what the rifle was capable of. I think a hell of a lot more viewers would be more inclined to buy into a $3,000 rifle if the they saw the darned thing hitting some targets. The viewer at home was left thinking, "Hell, I can hit better with my $99 New England Firearms single shot!" His desire for face time put the final nail in the Steyr Scout coffin. All he worked for went down the toilet with his abysmal shooting "skills."
COL Cooper was on the forefront of the 10mm Auto cartridge, too. He worked hard for people to take notice of its capability. I personally think the 10mm is the best fighting handgun cartridge in existence, but where has it gone? It seems Cooper has the inverse Midas touch: everything he touches turns to crap (10mm and Steyr Scout).
What burns me more than anything is his complete lack of modesty. He does not know the word humility. He talks (writes) a lot of tough-guy talk, but when it came to shooting day he couldn't hit a barn at 5 paces. He reminds me of an 80 year-old man sitting in a bar and looking for a fist fight to relive his glory years. He needs to remove himself from the shooting community by retiring quietly, with dignity and humility.
A wise man knows when to gracefully bow out. COL Cooper and Michael Jordan need better advisors.
Rob
[This message has been edited by In service to His Majesty (edited 10-28-2001).]
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As to the notion of Jeff Cooper receiving some sort of financial recompense from Steyr, I would suggest that you put up or shut up. If you have knowledge of such an arrangement, cite your sources. Otherwise, do not attribute such base motives to one of the men who has actually advanced the art of shooting.
When you bag your lion on your eightieth birthday, you will have earned the right to smirk at Cooper's age-diminished shooting abilities.
If you can't respect your elders, at least respect your betters.
Rosco
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in serice to His Majesty, Oh boy,
First, Col. Cooper, is, and will forever be a great man.. I understand that you don`t like Col. Cooper, fine, but who are you, and what have you done, to pass judgement on such a man who has most likely forgotten more about shooting, combat, and anything else for that matter, than you will ever know? I didn`t see or hear of this TV show you speak of, & sure as hell am not going to take your word for it on what happened.. Further, i don`t know or care how well Col. Cooper shoots at over 80 years old, but seriously doubt he is bad a shot as you say.. I find it funny that you also passed judgement on someones lack of modesty & humility, in your uncalled for and absurd! attack on Col. Cooper it is quite telling.. I suppose it`s all well and good for you to write of your disapproval of Col. Cooper, as he has written of his disapproval of your type..
PS. Whould you like to go a little one-on-one with Michael Jordan? I`m sure you could demonstrate how he is over the hill, right?
-Gilmore
[This message has been edited by Citizen_Gilmore (edited 10-28-2001).]
First, Col. Cooper, is, and will forever be a great man.. I understand that you don`t like Col. Cooper, fine, but who are you, and what have you done, to pass judgement on such a man who has most likely forgotten more about shooting, combat, and anything else for that matter, than you will ever know? I didn`t see or hear of this TV show you speak of, & sure as hell am not going to take your word for it on what happened.. Further, i don`t know or care how well Col. Cooper shoots at over 80 years old, but seriously doubt he is bad a shot as you say.. I find it funny that you also passed judgement on someones lack of modesty & humility, in your uncalled for and absurd! attack on Col. Cooper it is quite telling.. I suppose it`s all well and good for you to write of your disapproval of Col. Cooper, as he has written of his disapproval of your type..
PS. Whould you like to go a little one-on-one with Michael Jordan? I`m sure you could demonstrate how he is over the hill, right?
-Gilmore
[This message has been edited by Citizen_Gilmore (edited 10-28-2001).]
In service,
A few comments:
-Col. Cooper has stated publically that he has NO financial stake in Steyr, and frequently criticizes factory decisions. If you have proof that this is incorrect, please share.
-The MSRP for Jeff Cooper scout package is just about $2600 including Luepold scope, mounts, sling, two mags and carry case, not the $3000.00 you keep quoting. Given normal market practices a buyer should be able to shave something off MSRP.
-The Scout concept is a general purpose rifle in a compact carryable size able to competently perform in a wide array of situations, not a piece specialized to perform excellently in one situation at the expense of performing poorly in others. You state that up to 300 yards standard battle sights are good, beyond that use a standard scoped rifle. All well and good, but how do you know beforehand which rifle to carry in all situations? Logistically speaking, how would you carry multiple arms and their gear. Financially speaking, how much would you have invested in a battery of arms of comperable quality specialized to each situation?
-I agree with you that the 10mm is probably the finest semi-auto pistol cartridge avilable. I disagree with your assertion that it's limited sucess can be laid at the Col's feet as there are a variety of other factors.
Factors such as:
-The still-born BrenTen from Dornus and Dixon, with which Cooper was admittedly involved. Mostly a function of poor business practices and decisions by the company from my understanding which nonetheless left a number of folks financially wounded and PO'd
- Early 10mm Deltas beating themselves to pieces when first released.
-The fact that other than the Glock 29 it was only chambered in full size pistols. Look at what most cops carry, usually a mid size Glock 19 type.
-Many didn't like the recoil, noise and muzzle flash of the full house 10mm, leading to the attenuated FBI loading which was quickly duplicated in the more popular mid sized pistols by the .40 S&W. In this the 10mm shared much the same fate as the .41 mag championed by the likes of Bill Jordan.
The 10mm, .41 mag and scout concepts are more for conisours than the "shoot a box of ammo a year" types. When the FBI abandoned the 10mm in favor of the .40S&W after such a short time, for very valid reasons, it really put the brakes on any popularity that 10mm might achieve.
-I'm not aware of any "final nail in the coffin of Styer", although the company has been sold and things seem to be somewhat up in the air at this time. Even if Steyr does fail the scout concept will likely live on, as has happened with many other good ideas over the years. In a modified form I believe Springfield's M1A Scout is doing quite well, and in the latest editon of SOF Chuck Karwan has a very good article discussing the advantages of the Scout M1A over the traditional M1A. If you feel a bolt gun isn't adequate, perhaps this is the way to go, although it is heavier and longer than the Col's ideal.
-Col Cooper WAS and IS a great man with a lifetime of acomplisment. I see no need for him to affect false modesty per your expectations even if his performance is diminised by age. Even if his shooting was sub par, I'd still like to see main proponant of the Scout concept put the genesis of his dream through it's paces. It seems a bit hippocritical and illogical to first accuse him of promoting the scout concept for personal gain from Steyr and then say he his failure to present it better via his shooting demonstration doomed the product.
-You state you don't own a Scout rifle. Have you ever handled or shot one? I've handled one but admittedly have not shot one, though I look forward to doing so someday, hopefully soon. Even though I haven't shot one, I still can recognize and appreciate the reasoning the Col. had for many design features. Perhaps if you put one through it's paces you might feel differently. From the tone of your posts however it sounds as though your animosity towards Col. Cooper precludes your open investigation of his concept.
Manny
[This message has been edited by Manny (edited 10-29-2001).]
A few comments:
-Col. Cooper has stated publically that he has NO financial stake in Steyr, and frequently criticizes factory decisions. If you have proof that this is incorrect, please share.
-The MSRP for Jeff Cooper scout package is just about $2600 including Luepold scope, mounts, sling, two mags and carry case, not the $3000.00 you keep quoting. Given normal market practices a buyer should be able to shave something off MSRP.
-The Scout concept is a general purpose rifle in a compact carryable size able to competently perform in a wide array of situations, not a piece specialized to perform excellently in one situation at the expense of performing poorly in others. You state that up to 300 yards standard battle sights are good, beyond that use a standard scoped rifle. All well and good, but how do you know beforehand which rifle to carry in all situations? Logistically speaking, how would you carry multiple arms and their gear. Financially speaking, how much would you have invested in a battery of arms of comperable quality specialized to each situation?
-I agree with you that the 10mm is probably the finest semi-auto pistol cartridge avilable. I disagree with your assertion that it's limited sucess can be laid at the Col's feet as there are a variety of other factors.
Factors such as:
-The still-born BrenTen from Dornus and Dixon, with which Cooper was admittedly involved. Mostly a function of poor business practices and decisions by the company from my understanding which nonetheless left a number of folks financially wounded and PO'd
- Early 10mm Deltas beating themselves to pieces when first released.
-The fact that other than the Glock 29 it was only chambered in full size pistols. Look at what most cops carry, usually a mid size Glock 19 type.
-Many didn't like the recoil, noise and muzzle flash of the full house 10mm, leading to the attenuated FBI loading which was quickly duplicated in the more popular mid sized pistols by the .40 S&W. In this the 10mm shared much the same fate as the .41 mag championed by the likes of Bill Jordan.
The 10mm, .41 mag and scout concepts are more for conisours than the "shoot a box of ammo a year" types. When the FBI abandoned the 10mm in favor of the .40S&W after such a short time, for very valid reasons, it really put the brakes on any popularity that 10mm might achieve.
-I'm not aware of any "final nail in the coffin of Styer", although the company has been sold and things seem to be somewhat up in the air at this time. Even if Steyr does fail the scout concept will likely live on, as has happened with many other good ideas over the years. In a modified form I believe Springfield's M1A Scout is doing quite well, and in the latest editon of SOF Chuck Karwan has a very good article discussing the advantages of the Scout M1A over the traditional M1A. If you feel a bolt gun isn't adequate, perhaps this is the way to go, although it is heavier and longer than the Col's ideal.
-Col Cooper WAS and IS a great man with a lifetime of acomplisment. I see no need for him to affect false modesty per your expectations even if his performance is diminised by age. Even if his shooting was sub par, I'd still like to see main proponant of the Scout concept put the genesis of his dream through it's paces. It seems a bit hippocritical and illogical to first accuse him of promoting the scout concept for personal gain from Steyr and then say he his failure to present it better via his shooting demonstration doomed the product.
-You state you don't own a Scout rifle. Have you ever handled or shot one? I've handled one but admittedly have not shot one, though I look forward to doing so someday, hopefully soon. Even though I haven't shot one, I still can recognize and appreciate the reasoning the Col. had for many design features. Perhaps if you put one through it's paces you might feel differently. From the tone of your posts however it sounds as though your animosity towards Col. Cooper precludes your open investigation of his concept.
Manny
[This message has been edited by Manny (edited 10-29-2001).]
In service, you forgot to mention the Ginzu knife you get if you order in the next 10 minutes.
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I sort of like the overall concept of the "scout rifle", although Jeff Cooper is unhappy that the term and concept have been more or less highjacked by the shooting community.
The actual Steyr Scout Rifle is about as ugly a gun as I've ever had the misfortune to actually look at. And I am one of those crazy guys who won't buy an ugly gun if he has a more attractive alternative.
You can get a light, handy, reliable .308 with a long eye-relief scope for a lot less than the Steyr Scout. That would do me. I can put the spare magazine in my pocket.
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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
I sort of like the overall concept of the "scout rifle", although Jeff Cooper is unhappy that the term and concept have been more or less highjacked by the shooting community.
The actual Steyr Scout Rifle is about as ugly a gun as I've ever had the misfortune to actually look at. And I am one of those crazy guys who won't buy an ugly gun if he has a more attractive alternative.
You can get a light, handy, reliable .308 with a long eye-relief scope for a lot less than the Steyr Scout. That would do me. I can put the spare magazine in my pocket.
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If God didn't want us to own guns, why did He make the 1911?
Not that I am supporting the thoughts of In His Majesties Service, but didn't we once have a big debate about questioning another persons qualifications to make a judgment???? IHMS obviously doesn’t think much of the Colonel but that’s his opinion. I have some disagreements with the Colonels line of reasoning on occasion also but overall I like what he has to say.
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101 Posts
Yeah. I can just picture that fiasco. He was probably taken to a "game preserve" escorted by two guides (read: guaranteed kill).
The lion was probably a retired circus performer who ate out of his trainer's hand and gave the trainer a good-night lick on the face at bedtime.
Cooper probably strolled up in his ATV and blasted the lion as it was about to extend its paw in a handshake.
Do I have proof of this? Of course not. It's satire. But I'll bet this satire isn't all that far from truth, at least about the game preserve and the guides. This is NOT hunting. Hell, just go to the zoo and kill one. It's the same thing.
Flame me on this, too.
Rob
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3,119 Posts
Flame you? I just asked you to provide details and sources for your accusation that Cooper promotes the Steyr Scout on some sort of "commission" basis. Given that you chose not to, I must surmise that your accusation was baseless. Figures.
The circumstances surrounding the taking of Cooper's lion have been written up and are available for anyone who wishes to know the details. There were other hunters in the party who can corroborate the circumstances as set forth and Cooper's PH is not in the business of "stake-em-out-and-shoot-em" hunts. Of course, you may believe what you wish to believe.
It's too bad that it seems impossible to have a discussion of the virtues and vices of the Scout rifle without personal attacks on Cooper. I've got an idea. Why don't you write the good colonel and ask him about the shabby motivations, hucksterism, and poor sportsmanship that you attribute to him. Please include details of your education, broad experiences, literary output, extensive travels, and other such details that bolster your basis for criticizing him. Lastly, please provide your letter and Cooper's response here. THAT will be entertaining.
Rosco
P.S. - In an attempt to get this thread back on course, I will observe that, while the "scout" concept has some positive attributes (compactness, light weight, ease in loading & bolt manipulation, quickness on moving targets), the Steyr Scout has some "warts" (hard bolt lift, hard-to-use backup sights, potential for glare on the ocular lens, and freaky looks). The fact that it is a production scout and has inspired other makers to follow suite, makes it a positive forward step.
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