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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a question I have trying to find an answer to for a while.

Overall which is a better design as far as reliability, trigger pull, and durability?

I am interested in both the SIG GSR which has the Series 80 FPS and the Kimber TLE RL II which has the Schwartz Safety. Any feedback would be appreciated.

96Ag
 

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Many people are having problems with their Series II Kimbers because of the safety. The Swartz system is not a bad concept, but when poorly executed can lead to problems. The most common complaints are failures to fire unless the grip safety is pressed down hard and failures of the slide to return to full lockup.

The SIG is a new gun, so only time will tell. S&W uses a system similar (but not identical) to the Swartz system, and their early guns had a recall because of problems with the safety. From what I've been hearing however it looks like they fixed the problem.
 

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S80 is a proven design, in use for twenty years, in tens of thousands of Colt and Para pistols. The Swartz safety would appear to have an advantage in its design, as it doesn't affect the trigger pull, but since it is newly mass-produced, there is little track record. I believe both Kimber and S&W have had some troubles with the system, but I don't know if that's a reason to condemn the concept.
 

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I think the Series 80 is a very reliable design. It seems like there may be more possibility of less reliability with the Swartz (although many Kimber owners will adamantly debate that). But I think the 80 has proven it's reliability over time. Can't quite say the same with the Swartz (especially on factory guns, as opposed to customized and tweaked guns).

The effect on trigger pull of the Series 80 is way overblown IMO. It is minimal, unless you are wanting some ultra light trigger competition gun.

But this is a big debate, and I'm just some guy on the internet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I haven't had a 1911 style pistol since college and I really miss having one. The new Kimber and Sig have every thing I want so now I just have to decide which one.

I was hoping the safety issue would make it easy, but apparently it is not a night and day difference between the two.

Why did Kimber have to do away with the Series one? The only Kimber I have ever fired was a Series One and it has been the nicest 1911 style pistol I have fired. After reading on this board I have concerns about the Series II, but also reservations about the Series 80.

So like I said, thanks for your input it is appreciated.

96Ag
 

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Way way way back, Colt had used Shwartz system. Makes ya wonder why in the '80's when they decided to add a fps, they came out with a totally new one.
 

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Way way way back, Colt had used Shwartz system. Makes ya wonder why in the '80's when they decided to add a fps, they came out with a totally new one.
Maybe they forgot about it or they had the same problems Kimber and S&W had or have. Either way I'm waiting a little while longer before I get a 1911 with a firing pin safety other than Colt. Being a broke college student helps with the waiting.:biglaugh:
 

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96AG....

Why did Kimber do away with the pre Series 2 guns.....that's the 64 million dollar question. Getting the guns to meet California's drop test and other standards was probably the first reason. The second reason was to probably garner more law enforcement business. And the third reason is probably to frustrate the dickens out of those of us who love pre Series 2 Kimbers.

Also, don't confuse the S&W FP safety with the Kimber Swartz or the Series 80 Colt.......The SW is kind of a blend of both systems in some respects.

Still, I like the Series 80 Colt system the best as it has been proven over time. The Swartz has been proven over time but not by Kimber in my opinion.

Regards,
Sam

Regards,
Sam
 

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I would get the Series 80s' over the Schwartz. I have tried the Schwartz Safety on the Kimbers and it has given me more problems in the short period of time it has been out then the Series 80s' in Colts and Paras in almost the past 20 years.
 

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Gary1911A1 said:
I would get the Series 80s' over the Schwartz. I have tried the Schwartz Safety on the Kimbers and it has given me more problems in the short period of time it has been out then the Series 80s' in Colts and Paras in almost the past 20 years.
Yep, you're right on the money in my book.
Regards,
Sam
 

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Gary1911A1 said:
I would get the Series 80s' over the Schwartz. I have tried the Schwartz Safety on the Kimbers and it has given me more problems in the short period of time it has been out then the Series 80s' in Colts and Paras in almost the past 20 years.
Related failures on Kimbers have rendered the pistol useless. Haven't heard about this being a problem on the Series 80 Colts.
 

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I can already envision the fumes rising off the heads of Kimber series II fans, but it seems some of the few people not complaining about them are the manufacturers themselves and the big name gun magazines who run all the fancy Kimber ads.

The issue might just be that installing one of those Schwartz type safties requires more precise fitting than the company can feasibly do on a mass produced piece. Colt more than likely chose the Series 80 safety for its relative simplicity over other possible design. It also could be that the Series 80 FPS allows for the not so precise toleraces found on a standard run of the mill production handgun. Maybe some of you smiths can shed some light on this?
 

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fremont said:
Related failures on Kimbers have rendered the pistol useless. .
I don't know about "useless" since I still can use it as a deadly hammer or throwing object. :D . Oh and by the way I own a series II Kimber and am happy with it.
 

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The FPS in both of the series 80s I own/owned were just one of several problems. They worked, but made it impossible to get a trigger pull under ~5 pounds until the smith removed the parts.

Two series II Kimbers and I can't get the Schwartz system to fail or otherwise cause a problem. Of course, I have less than 16,000 rounds through them.

Eddie
 

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Eddie said:
The FPS in both of the series 80s I own/owned were just one of several problems. They worked, but made it impossible to get a trigger pull under ~5 pounds until the smith removed the parts.
Eddie
.....I think you need to find a better gunsmith! Its quite easy to get a Series 80 trigger down to 3.5lbs with the existing stock parts ..... and about a pound lighter if you remove the Series 80 parts.
 

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Ditto. I've never experienced a failure with any series 80 type safety on several Colts, some of which had thousands of rounds put through them, and I had one tuned to around four pounds. It just takes a true smith who has the skill to accomplish it.

I'm glad there are some of you guys who get great mileage out of your Series 2 Kimbers, but maybe they'll see the light one day and go back to the very reliable Series 1. There were much fewerr problems reported back in those days and the one I owned was just a fantastic shooting machine. Too bad I needed the money instead of the gun, I do wish it were here with me.
 

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Does SIG have a reputation that's better than Kimber or S&W???
 

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Of course there is one other reason Colt why could have came up with the series 80 firung pin safety. If the Schwartz fps was patented in the 30's any patent would have expired by the 80's, so they could have came up with a new system to be patented and make some money off licensing fees from other companies.
 
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