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Discussion Starter #1
Shane is right about Red Dot being a damn good and clean powder. Comparing 100rd tests at 5gr of each:
Tightgroup
Red Dot
Clays
Vihtavouri N310

Red Dot and Tightgroup at 5gr are very similar in velocities, accuracy, and recoil. However, Red Dot is cleaner. Red Dot also has a different type of residue, a dustier type vice a sticky type. I was able to blow off the residue left over by Red Dot.

Viht N310 didn't impress me enough over the domestic powders.

Clays and Red Dot compete in cleanliness, but Clays is a faster burning powder giving higher pressures. (Refereing to listed data)
 

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I'm just using Clays now and find it very clean indeed, but only moderately accurate when measuring with my Uniflow (+/- .2 grains is not uncommon). What is your experience with Red Dot and consistency of measure?

I would also be curious about the min/max spread of reloads with Red Dot vs Clays if anyone knows. That is, does Red Dot have a good range between minimum and maximum?

It sounds like it's my next powder to try!
 

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Amen, brother Gargoyle.
Glad your experience was good. The title of your thread kinda scared me - I'm thinking *** did I do now???


EdGCNM, Red Dot can be loaded as "weak" as 4.0 grs. and as hot as 5.3 grs. with a 230 gr. bullet (jacketed or lead).

It is, as Gargoyle confirms, a very clean powder at all velocities. Very economical too, as shown above. (Jeez, a pound of Red Dot would almost last you a lifetime if you only loaded 4 grs. every time
)

I use a Lee Auto-disk powder measure, and it meters very well for a flake-type powder. 1/10 gr. variation sometimes, usually right on the money however.

It's been too many years since I used Clays, so I am not really comfortable suggesting min/max. loads with that powder.

[This message has been edited by shane45-1911 (edited 08-26-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Shane,
Yeah, now that I look at the title from an unbaised authors's view, I can see how it may have stirred you a little. Got to keep you on your toes!


Ed,
I would start with 4gr of Clays and see how you like it. Any more than 5gr and you don't get the velocity benefit. 5gr is what I shoot with it.

"As thou hast seeneth the results, the Gargoyle believeth the powers of Red Dot"

[This message has been edited by Gargoyle (edited 08-27-2001).]
 

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As Red Dot is the fastest burning of all of Alliant's powder's, I find Bullseye to be pretty damn good for metering and being somewhat clean, but with a burn rate fairly decent for .45's. VihtaVuori on the other hand is very clean burning, however requiring a bit of cross-checking being an extruded powder. If Red Dot works for you, by all means, knock yourself out! Has anyone here tried American Select? Or green dot? Those two are very clen powders, and low felt recoil as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Originally posted by mikr:
VihtaVuori on the other hand is very clean burning,
I tried Vihtavuori N310 and it wasn't as clean as Clays or Red Dot. Maybe other powders from Viht, but not this one.



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Originally posted by Gargoyle:
I tried Vihtavuori N310 and it wasn't as clean as Clays or Red Dot. Maybe other powders from Viht, but not this one.
After trying red dot after it was reformulated, it was cleaner than before but still faster burning and clays is a hodgdon powder, suited for 27 yard trap. 310 and 320 especially surprised me as to how much cleaner it was versus alliant's variety and accurate's as well. American select was the best I have seen for cleanliness, but green dot takes it for cleanliness and low recoil. Personal preference is what it is here. I shoot what I like until I come across something better.

Again, you can't please everyone!
 

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Originally posted by mikr:
As Red Dot is the fastest burning of all of Alliant's powder's...
Just nit-picking a bit here, but Red Dot is actually second fastest, relatively speaking.

Unique burns fastest.
 

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Originally posted by high_caliber:
Did you mean to say Bullseye?
1,000 points to you high_caliber, and a lifetime supply of used and de-capped primers.

Nice save - you are correct - I meant Bullseye indeed. Thank you.
 

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Oops, I stand corrected-red dot is second to bullseye in burn rate, don't know why I did not check the sheet before posting. My mistake.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Faster burn rate equals higher pressures and slower burn rate equals lower pressures correct? Is velocity directly proportional to burn rate? (example: faster burning more velocity/slower burning less velocity)



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In a nutshell, yes, Gargoyle. Of course there are other factors at work such as bullet weight, barrel length, etc. but you've got the idea with all other factors being even.
 

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Not always, Gargoyle. The devil is in the details. Otherwise, if we carried this theory to the extreme, we could just seat a 150 grain bullet over a 30-06 case filled with Bullseye and have a real barn burner of a load. Naturally, we know this approach won't work unless we want a blown up gun and shooter. The study of interior/exterior ballistics is a facinating part of our hobby. If you haven't already done so, buy several good reloading handbooks and read the information regarding pressure in each one. Also, you might look for out of print books by Dean Grennel (not sure if I spelled the last name correctly) and Maj. George Nonte. Both these men were prolific writers in the firearms/reloading field several years ago. You should be able to find their books without too much trouble.hth-TR

Originally posted by Gargoyle:
Is velocity directly proportional to burn rate? (example: faster burning more velocity/slower burning less velocity)
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Thanks guys,
Slew of questions:
So now...Am I safe to assume that a result of lower pressure with greater velocity is what one would like to acheive?

Example: I'm inclined to shoot Titegroup more than Clays because Titegroup has a lower listed pressure in relation to grain weight, but gives higher velocity.

Listed data by Hodgdon: (MAX)
Bullet: 200gr JHP
Barrel: 5"
COL: 1.155"

Powder GR VEL CUP

HS-6 9.0 948 16,400

Universal 6.7 930 17,200

HP-38 5.9 906 16,700

Titegroup 5.2 884 16,900

Clays 4.3 785 17,700

Out of these, Titegroup looks to be the most appealing with lower grain weight, lower pressures, and higher velocity. Opposite of this is Clays with low grain weight with high pressures, and low velocity. Why put your gun through that?

COL? Is that the same as OAL? If so, then the depth listed puts the bullet deep in the case.


[This message has been edited by Gargoyle (edited 09-03-2001).]
 

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17,700 psi is not going to make a bit of differance in a modern 1911. The presures is fairly low. My load of 4.3gr. of Clays,200gr.LSWC gives me 850 fps in my H&K, it's performance tells me this is one good load for my needs. I also use 5.0 gr. of WST
for 860fps with good results. Both are safe loads. My 2 cents..
 

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T.Labren's right Gargoyle. All the pressures you list are very low, relative to other cartridges (9mm, .40 S&W, etc.)

Yes, COL = OAL and I tend to think that 1.155" is a bit on the short side as well.

And again, yes - finding the highest velocity with the lowest pressure is a good way of doing things.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks guys, now I can move on with having piece of mind about all that pressure stuff. Well...until something else gets me going, and I'm sure Murphy hasn't given up on me yet!
 
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