1911Forum banner

1 - 20 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've been teaching a friend to shoot pistols at 25yds. She has the basics, but has a problem I haven't seen in many years of teaching other people to shoot. I normally put four bulls eye targets, 5" diameter each, on the board in a square. I've been having her shoot on the top right, and she can usually put some rounds in it or on the edge, but sometimes she drops rounds straight down on the target below, and sometimes puts them on the target below and left.

I've found she does flinch sometimes, jerking the weapon down when I put dummy rounds in. The strange thing is that she is not throwing rounds all over the board, the way poor shooters normally do. She creates very well-defined groups, some in her target, some low, and some low and left. She had a group of 6 rounds low and left the other day in a 2" group; no other holes over there, just a 6-shot 2" group that was 6" low and 8-10" left of her aim point, then a distinct group 6" directly below her aim point, and some rounds in the target she aimed at.

She normally shoots 5 rds at a time, isosceles stance, exhibits good form, good grip, the pistols are 1911's and USP's. She insists she is not shooting at the other targets by accident and that she is maintaining focus on the front sight. I've seen people consistently shoot to one side of the target, but I can't see what she is doing with her trigger. I've just never seen this level of consistent, inaccurate shooting before and it has me extremely puzzled. Has anyone seen this or heard of a way to correct it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,141 Posts
How about just 1 dot instead of 4, that way you will know for sure which dot she was shooting at.
.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,425 Posts
And maybe try getting closer to the target until the confidence level goes up. If nothing else try a different pair of safety glasses, I've noticed with some I can't always get a good sight picture, but I have problems getting a good sight picture with anything anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
This sounds like me when I started to shoot pistols. I shot low and to the right(left handed) but in a nice grouping. I was jerking the trigger, but very consistently.
I think the chart above is probably the best answer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,387 Posts
Why 25 yards?

Are you training for a specific purpose?

Defensive shooting is 5,7,10 yards, flash sight picture, groups high center mass the size of your hand.

Low left is the result of anticipating, reaction to recoil aversion.

Small groups away from the POA indicates sight alignment error.

You didn't mention the age of the shooter or whether she use corrective lenses.

Is she seeing a sharp front sight?

All the best,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,173 Posts
I would at least go to one target and 15 yards if possible to start and I know at some ranges it is one distance or don't shoot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,933 Posts
Teach her to shoot with a .22. Of course she's flinching!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,481 Posts
Why 25 yards?

Are you training for a specific purpose?

Defensive shooting is 5,7,10 yards, flash sight picture, groups high center mass the size of your hand.
Why not 25 yards? Closer-distance shooting benefits a lot from shooting at that distance.

Instead of "reaction" to recoil, I believe you mean anticipation. By the time one is reacting to recoil, the bullet has left the barrel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
410 Posts
Hi Hoke, Your friend needs to put in tons of time dry firing. Stay away from the

shooting range for a few weeks. Also do not refer to that accursed pie chart

that displays off poi hits. :hrm:

Precision Bullseye and international precision shooters discovered some years

back that for training, you do not emphasize what not to do, you emphasize what

you should do that yields a ten or X-ring hit.

Your friend will learn and internalize the correct trigger motion that results in

a stable non-upsetting sight picture and hold. This approach introduces no

negative concepts. Best of luck to you and your friend. :)

Tony
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,976 Posts
Because shooting at closer ranges builds confidence and confidence will make a better 25yd. shooter.
Maybe. Maybe not.

If you can drill the target at 25, you can without doubt do so at shorter ranges. Not so certain that someone who drills a target at 7 yards will be able to do so at 25.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,041 Posts
How I was taught to shoot a pistol

When I was taught to shoot and when I then used the same technique to teach my son to shoot it went like this:

Start out at 7 yards / 20 feet or so. Nice and close. If your range allows it, maybe even closer?? Use on target at least 8" in diameter and on a back ground where you can determine where all shots impact even if they are off the target.

0. Using paper and pencil, show proper sight alignment and POA/POI for the pistol she is working with. This is critical as quite a few new shooters don't know POA/POI for their pistol or even that different manufacturers have different out of box POA/POI's.

1. Confirm proper grip on safed handgun. Study the grip and get used to it. If you are looking at self defense purposes, don't worry about presentation from holster at this point.

2. Make sure that for whatever stance she chooses, that she is aggressively leaning forward to counteract recoil that can push her back and get her off balance. You can confirm this by giving her a red gun, you standing in front of her having her get into the stance and you pushing on her grip and seeing if she is pushed back easily out of the stance or if she moves slightly back bending a bit at the waist and then back forward into the leaning in position.

3. Load one round, have her grip the gun and put her finger on the trigger. Verify the proper grip and stance. You put your finger over hers on the trigger and instruct her to let you pull the trigger. Her only job at this point is to hold the sights, aligned properly. You slowly and smoothly pull the trigger and the pistol will fire unexpectedly for her. In most cases it will be a very good placement. Repeat this for four or five shots; relaxing in between shots. This step demonstrates that if she pays attention to the basics of shooting the pistol will perform. If this doesn't work I would be at a loss here.

4. Have her carefully aim and shoot by herself for five dry practice rounds very deliberately and with great attention to all the details of grip, stance, sight alignment and trigger control.

5. Have her repeat step 4 with ammo. In between every single shot have her relax and take tension out of her shoulders and arms. Resting the pistol on the bench pointing down range is good. You position yourself to one side or the other, quite close and stare at her pistol and watch the front sight looking for any movement beyond the standard slight wavering we all have.

6. Get one non-functional round. You load her mag/cylinder and don't tell her which position the non-functional round is in. Repeat step 6 and look for flinch.

Repeat this process to whatever level of detail needed until step six consistently results in a reasonable group - certainly no larger than 8 inches.

Whenever she or any other student is having trouble, go back to basics and repeat steps 4 and 5.

Not everyone will put up with this method, but if you want to shoot well you have to learn and apply the basics every single time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,254 Posts
I agree with others that she needs to be closer in, much closer. Secondly, it's not at all uncommon for newbies and others to be consistent in their groupings though their accuracy is lacking.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,685 Posts
I've been teaching a friend to shoot pistols at 25yds.
I've found she does flinch sometimes, jerking the weapon down when I put dummy rounds in.

She creates very well-defined groups,

She had a group of 6 rounds low and left the other day in a 2" group; n

just a 6-shot 2" group that was 6" low and 8-10" left of her aim point, then a distinct group 6" directly below her aim point, and some rounds in the target she aimed at.


Has anyone seen this or heard of a way to correct it?
she's very consistent at pushing the pistol and milking the grip

tell her don't forget to follow through

..L.T.A.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Thanks for all the replies. I like to start brand new shooters at 15yds, then move them back to 25. If people pay attention and follow directions, there's usually no problem getting them on paper at 25yds. Once they are accurate, I move on to speed, and for that I have the target in closer.

She's been to the range with me 10-15 times now, so she's getting pretty comfortable with it, and she is always on paper, which is about 14" square, so I know where her rounds are going. I'd like to have one target at a time, but it's a public range and usually only goes cold every 20 minutes or so, and one target gets chewed up pretty well in 5 min, so that's why I have 4 up. I agree just one would be better, but I had her bring the pistol up from the bottom target to the top to be sure she was shooting on the top one, and it was the same deal. I believe her when she says she is aimed at the correct target.

We went this morning, and she got more rounds, roughly 75%, on the correct target than before. I have her dry fire in between mags, and she does flinch sometimes. I've used the dummy round trick before and that does not go over well at all, so I can't really do that again. She says she can see the front sight pull to the left (she is rh), and when I ask if she is squeezing with her non-trigger fingers, she says "Maybe, sort of". So I agree with "she's very consistent at pushing the pistol and milking the grip", although if I knew I could get that consistency by pushing and milking, I'd be willing to drift my sights.

Are there any exercises to prevent milking, other than that handsqueezer with the individual buttons? I've had people milking the pistol before, but they usually stopped doing it after I explained it to them. Thanks again to everyone for the assistance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,387 Posts
Gunbugbit: Fixed it!

jjfitch
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
702 Posts
too much grip with the grip hand, too little grip from the support hand and possibly too much gun for both.......
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,626 Posts
I don't know about her, but I can't see the target at 25 yards. Maybe that's part of the equation.

Bob
 
1 - 20 of 37 Posts
Top