[EX CATM]

Just wanted to see what the genral consensus was among fellow shooters. Your at a match you are not an RO/SO/MD etc, just another shooter. You notice a few people in your squad, who are not in your class/division, bending if not breaking the rules on several stages without being penalized, either the RO/SO dosen't notice, dosen't know the rule or dosen't care. WHat would you do?
1. Keep your mouth shut and mind your own buisness.
2. Complain to the shooter that what they are doing is against the rules, even though the RO/SO dosen't seem to mind.
3. Complain to the RO/SO/MD
4. Be glad somebodys getting away with and see if you can too.

 

[HighVelocity]

If it's a safety issue then you point it out to an RO immediately. If it's about procedure or scoring then I'd save my complaints. Depending on how bad it was, I might bring it up after the match to whomever is in charge.

 

[RickB]

Ditto.

 

[rhino465]

If it's safety related, I'd say speak to the RO immediately, and perhaps the match director as well if that doesn't solve the problem.

Otherwise, unless there is money on the line, I'd keep my mouth shut. if I believed the shooter was ignorant of the rules and not intentionally breaking them, I might broach the subject with them directly after the match, as diplomatically as possible. If someone is obviously cheating to get an advantage, they are cheating themselves.

 

[j_a_espo]

Depends, I don't mind a new shooter getting a break or some coaching before a stage. Still being a new shooter myself I know that I really appreciated some of the suggestions and pointers that I received. If this was rule bending/breaking the other shooters didn't say anything ... probably because I'm not winning.

 

[COF]

I'd talk to the MD when I saw him on the range - especially if he is a genial, engaging kind of guy.

Seriously though, if you see them constantly pushing the envelope - as some shooters tend to do - I'd probably take them aside and let them know that you see what they're doing and don't appreciate it. That tends to put them on notice that they aren't being as slick as they think they are. Each of us has a responsibility for the sport, not just the officials running the match. In my estimation, the grass roots rule enforcement by the shooter's peers will have far more effect than the SO who catches the shooter pushing the envelope.

 

[freeidaho]

Re: Ethics Call and its affect

If it's about procedure or scoring then I'd save my complaints. Depending on how bad it was, I might bring it up after the match to whomever is in charge.

HighVel,
I'm not picking on you. Please take no offense. I just want to see where this idea will take us, because I might do just the same as you say.

With this tact, the MD, might choose to penalize the offending shooter, after he consulted with the necessary parties. By the way it is worded, it seems that this might happen after the match is over. So this tact, leads us to the situation where someone is penalized after they fired their last shot, and they were not penalized during the firing of the match. Interesting.

Lets say it is illegal equipment that was reported.
Lets say it is moving equipment forward of center line under the concealment garment, after the equipment was checked.
Lets say it is loading magazines to above capacity, or downloading magazines for the perfect reload.

I'm not saying that reporting it after the match is good or bad, just pointing out what it may mean. This is interesting to me in the context of the recent sanctioned match.

Of course the MD could chose to do nothing with this information. Which allows the behavior to merrily continue, and the rest of the honest shooters are penalized. Tough call.

Food for thought ! ! !

Ken Reed

 

[RickB]

Excellent reply, Ken. One of the reasons I'm very much against rules like "disabling safeties"; how am I supposed to know the safety features of each and every gun? What is a "safety"? If you were MDing a big match, and the shooter, who had finished second, tipped you that the match winner had a "disabled safety", how would you handle it? My take (as MD) is, if it becomes a safety ISSUE, then I'll look into it. If someone's gun is doubling, that's a safety issue. If someone's mag disconnector is disabled, it's not.

 

[MarkP]

Just wanted to see what the genral consensus was among fellow shooters. Your at a match you are not an RO/SO/MD etc, just another shooter. You notice a few people in your squad, who are not in your class/division, bending if not breaking the rules on several stages without being penalized, either the RO/SO dosen't notice, dosen't know the rule or dosen't care. WHat would you do?
1. Keep your mouth shut and mind your own buisness.
2. Complain to the shooter that what they are doing is against the rules, even though the RO/SO dosen't seem to mind.
3. Complain to the RO/SO/MD
4. Be glad somebodys getting away with and see if you can too.

When I am a guest at a "non-home" range and see the things you mention , I'll bite my tongue and take my score sheet home . There is no sense in having scores posted if there isn't any rule enforcement across the board.

I would never consider #4 an option.

my 2 cents

 

[boo radley]

I can't imagine #4 is an option any of us would consider.

The others...not enough information on the offense.

Sometimes saying nothing is in order.

Sometimes a semi-humorous observation said loudly gets the point across.

The only action I have a little problem with is saying nothing at all in public, but then later complaining to the MD or RO privately.

But again, it's hard to say wi/out more specifics.

 

[1911a1fan]

i look at it this way

I am not the so/ro/md so I really do not have say in the matter, I really wanted to have a say in the matter I would become one, but since I do not have a desire to do so, I keep my mouth shut, now I have seen so’s miss a shot whether it be on a no shoot or a point, I feel it is their job not mine, even when I am pasting I don’t say a word, it tends to be more in the negative range and people do not appreciate it when you point it out, and some even become angered and then will scrutinize you the rest of the match

Safety issue of course I will speak up, and as far as number 4. goes sure I think everyone has it go through their mind for a millisecond {well he did it} but for the most of us it is not an option, and I would not feel good about it if I did win that way, and if I do win anyway I feel much better about beating out a cheater

Ex-cam do you have a more elaborate scenario on the subject? Ie: what did you have in mind

 

[EX CATM]

No, no real set senario. I just keep coming back to the thought they we should all be responsible to some point for keeping a match fair, especially if you are not in the same division. I was just curious as to what most of you guys think and how pthers would handle the circumstances. I've seen it and said nothing, but after having thought about it I feel as if I probably should have. You hear a lot of complaining in IDPA for example about "gamers". But you never hear about someone who complained about another shooter "gaming" to an RO/SO and the RO/SO failed to do anything about it.

Hypethetical: IDPA, a guy air guns from a position to figure out how to shoot it, while the RO is down range checking targets. If another shooter were to complain about it I'm sure most ROs would at the least give a stiff warning. Or what if the RO is unware of the rule being violated, say dumping a mag in the wrong pocket in IDPA if another shooter saw it and complained the behavior would probably stop and there would probably be a penalty.

The problem you run into if you bring anything up is you can be labled a range nazi no it all. Then nothing you say is taken seriously. Or the RO/SO/MD may feel you are trying to undermine there authority, or make thier lives more difficult. So what does that leave you with? Abiding cheaters, or allowing someone to continue braking the rules in ignorance?

Thats why I started the thread. I can't figure out a good way to deal with the issue.

 

[1911a1fan]

Keep in mind, most of these people who cheat are in fact making up for bad shooting, and the more they get by with it the more they will do it, and sooner or later it will come back to bite them in the arse

As far as air gunning, I think it is a habit not yet kicked by everyone, I have caught myself starting to do it several times, although I think it is a stupid rule since everyone had a right to do it, there was no advantage since it was available to do by all, but since it is a rule we must follow it, my squad {usually the same people} all help each other not to do it by a subtle warning

 

[imashooter2]

If there is prize money involved, all competitors have a duty to protect the field and point out the violations. If it is for fun or pride of place, I wouldn't say anything.

 

[kevins_garage]

So the consensus seems to be that it is okay to break the rules as long as there is no money on the line and no safety issues.

Ethics are ethics guys. They don't just apply on the range or at work or at school or wherever. Either you have them and live by them or you don't. Ethics aren't a part-time hobby. If you feel something is wrong, it is your duty to speak up. There are ways of doing it tactfully and then there's acting like a range nazi/@$$. And then there's always the internet where everyone can come to talk about how they would rather just not say anything. :rock:

 

[MarkP]

There is an RO/score keep for a reason , it is their duty to score and apply any penalties , not the peanut gallery's.

If they do not know the rules of the game - whose fault is it ?

The competitors?
The match director ??
The match officials???

Attending any major match , it is expected that the competitors be familiar with the rules , we should expect nothing less from the match staff.
USPSA has that covered with certified and trained RO's.
IDPA on the other hand....

 

[Walking Point]

While I shoot little IDPA, what I do if it's a case of someone "getting over on the SO" is to take the timer on the next stage. Whatever it was that they were doing will come to a screeching halt. I'll also have a word of prayer with the individual depending on the situation, how long they've been in IDPA, etc.

At our local USPSA matches, there are so many experienced ROs shooting that nobody in contention is going to "get away" with anything much, and even then they will get ragged on in a major way by the rest of the squad. Newer shooters almost always get special treatment, something my wife is getting the benefit of here lately. I don't know, but perhaps the rest of the newer shooters don't appreciate such things.

I was in a charity match late last year where the RO was going to give an L-10 shooter a reshoot because he had a really nasty death jam. In that case I spoke up (I was also shooting L-10) and let him know I'd file a 3rd party arbitration if he awarded the reshoot. The shooter was quite willing to take a reshoot if he could get it, so my popularity dropped a bit for the rest of the match (like I care).

 

[RickB]

MarkP - Are you saying that because all certified ROs have taken the same class and the same test, that they are all uniformly knowledgable and skilled?

 

[RickB]

At our local USPSA matches, there are so many experienced ROs shooting that nobody in contention is going to "get away" with anything much, and even then they will get ragged on in a major way by the rest of the squad. Newer shooters almost always get special treatment, something my wife is getting the benefit of here lately. I don't know, but perhaps the rest of the newer shooters don't appreciate such things.

In my experience, shooters "in contention" will often ignore punishable offenses in other top shooters, expect ROs to give them special treatment because of their shooting skill, are running right on the edge themselves, so forgive someone who runs over the edge, etc. "Getting away with it" is all part of the game.

 

[TLE]

There is an RO/score keep for a reason , it is their duty to score and apply any penalties , not the peanut gallery's.

So say you are at a match and you see someone cheating like crazy but the SO is busy and doesn't see what's going on, this cheater isn't in your division so it doesn't affect you but he is stealing another shooters win that is playing it by the book and has worked hard to get where he is at. Are you saying that you would ignore what is going on because the SO didn't catch it?
That doesn't seem like the right answer either. It sure takes the fun out of the game when these situations come up.