[SteveW]

In a previous thread, someone brought up the use as shotguns as a home defense weapon. Most replies fell into two camps, the "No! A shotgun is a terrible home defese weapon!" camp and, the "HAHAHA I want to see them shrivel when I rack my 87 Wingmaster!" camp.
While we all understand the psycological effect of hearing a weapon, wether it be a pump shotgun, your favorite .45, or your Marlin .22 being put into battery, IS a long gun a good close quarters weapon?
Shotguns were used to great effect in the trenches of WW1 and the jungles of WW2 and Vietnam. Both of these areas are notorious for being up close and personal when the fighting starts. If these weapons were used to such great effect there, why would they be a bad choice for your home?
On the other hand, if you are using a long gun of any kind, for room clearing, etc. there is the chance of someone wrestling toe weapon away from you, and using it against you. Maybe a rethink of the tactics required would help in this situation? There are many instances of rifles being used as clubs, once things got nasty. Maybe holding your shotgun in such a mannet that you could use it as a jabbing weapon, in addition to using it as a firearm? I was taught that the best way to fight with a stick, or a club, is to jab with it, rather than swing it. Personally, I find the prospect of having a 12 guage shoved in my face with adrenelin charged force less than appetizing.
These are just a few thoughts I had, and would love to hear your comments.

Many thanks in advance,
Steve


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"Not having thought what should have been thought, not having said what should have been said, not doing what should have been done, I beg thee forgive me, O Father." paraphrase from the 13th Warrior

 

[Oddjob]

I think a short barreled shotgun is a good weapon for home defense. The key is to have a dedicated light (like a Sure Fire)and maybe sling it and adjust the sling to your body. After adjusting the sling have a friend try to turn the shotgun barrel (make sure its empty) towards you. I'll bet He/She can't do it. As far as hearing the action being worked my old firearms instructor said the shotgun should be ready to go and if the suspect still does something stupid (threating)the next sound should be a round going off.

 

[BillD]

"They say you can’t use a rifle or shotgun indoors because a bad guy will grab the barrel. Yeah? Well, he better hang on, ‘cause I’m gonna light him up and it’ll definitely be an "E" ticket ride." Clint Smith

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"What most of these people need is a good slap upside the head. What I don't need is any more lawsuits." John "The Tooz" Matusak

 

[Mikey]

AMEN to that!

The only drawback is the lenghth while trying to clear your house - so don't clear your house. Set up in your defensive core and call 911.

Mikey

 

[Rosco Benson]

The biggest problem with the notion of using a shotgun as a home defense weapon is that it is often advanced as being ideal for inadequately trained persons. The "logic" is typically that the untrained person is unlikely to miss with a shotgun. Hogwash! The shotgun's pattern, at home defense ranges, is so small that misses are quite likely if improper technique is used. Add to this the difficulty that the untrained person will have in remembering how to operate the shotgun under stress and you have a weapon that, no matter how formidable in the hands of an expert, is a very poor choice for the novice.

Also, while a shotgun may be just the ticket for an expert responding to home invasion, it does not lend itself to being available in more ambiguous or "preemptive" situations...such as being slipped into the waistband when taking out the trash at 11PM or being held inconspicuously when answering an unexpected late-night knock at the door.

A double action revolver is a much better choice for low-dedication personnel. Ideally, the revolver should be converted to double action ONLY.

Rosco

 

[LAK]

To me the answer is easy. A rifle (or in certain circumstances a shotgun) is the weapon of choice.

Proper handling of a suitably loaded short-barreled, say 7.62x39mm, semi-auto rifle (hmmmm, sounds like one of those "evil" guns) or a standard 20- or 12-gauge pump with an 18" barrel will make it VERY risky for anyone to try and jump you even in the confines of the average home. And if they do get that close to you, a pistol may not save you anyway. If the home is set up to YOUR advantage (and this could be a book let alone a long post) the odds are very much in your favor.

If you have more than say 20 or 30 yards from the house to your property boundary, a rifle begins to look even better.

To me, the pistol is what you should have "at hand, at all times". But the rifle (or shotgun) is the one to have when you know there is, or expect, real trouble. You can still always carry a pistol as back-up.

 

[elsworth]

I think the answer is whatever you like the best.

Train w/ your long gun, and your handgun, and see which you feel most comfortable w/.

For me the answer, in a dynamic moving situation is the handgun (though I would like a partner, that I trust, behind me w/ a .223 carbine)

Too, I have trouble w/ "heavy" guns. The Benelli semi auto 20 gauge looks attractive to me, at 5.7 lbs.. They have a 4 shot mag. extention for it too. The Remington pump 20 looks pretty good, as well. You could put a folding stock on that puppy for a fast handling , but serious close range weapon (if I am not mistaken, 20 gaugers were used to good effect in the trenches during WWI).

Perhaps, best of all though might be, Olympic Arms new FAR (it's not listed on their web site, but it is a non polymer, sub 5 lbs, .223 carbine)

Let us know what you decide.

Elsworth

P.S. I disagree w/ the theory of scaring them by racking the slide. I don't want them to hear anything, period.

[This message has been edited by elsworth (edited 08-10-2001).]

 

[Baer1911]

I’m surprised that no one has thought about over penetration. A 7.62x39 or a .223 is no good because of over penetration. You sure don’t want to shoot your kids in the next room, or the people in the next house. I think a 20 ga. with light loads would work fine. But my weapon of choice for use against home invasion is my Beretta 92FS 9mm and Pro-Load ammo. It’s sitting at ready with a loaded mag near by. Maybe I should have a 20 ga at ready?

 

[Car Knocker]

Wouldn't hurt.

 

[martyu]

Over penetration problem:
What if the bullet doesn't mushroom?
What if the target is missed? LEO's miss about 75% of the time.
I remember the rule about being sure of what is behind your target. Get low and shoot upward or don't shoot unless you know where your bullet is going if you miss or over penetrate.

A well respected instructor told our class that he would rather the perp bleed from an exit as well as an entrance hole.
Martyu

 

[SteveW]

Some interesting replies so far. I guess I was somewhat misleading in my original post. I keep a S&W 686 at close hand all the time (YES Mikey, it's that dreadful ported thing you think so highly of

). I also keep a couple of shotguns handy, one readily available (S&W 3000, 12 guage, and an old Remington Model 11 16 Guage in the safe.)
What I was trying to discover was, the logic behind the two camos of thought that sprung up in a different thread.
Keep up the posts. I am getting some interesting information from you guys.

Steve

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"Not having thought what should have been thought, not having said what should have been said, not doing what should have been done, I beg thee forgive me, O Father." paraphrase from the 13th Warrior

 

[Mall Ninja]

I just had this conversation with someone smarter than I in these matters... a person I train with named Pat Goodale (www.pgpft.com), who is a Lew Auerbuck student. Pat knows his stuff. The gist? A shotgun is a superb weapon in the right hands, but it has some limitations compared to the rifle. Recoil. Overpenetration (slugs/buvkshot CAN overpenetrate at close range). Fewer rounds in the mag.

His vote: an AR Shorty in .223, with hollowpoint ammo (and an Aimpoint/ACOG if possible). The right HP won't usually overpenetrate sheetrock or plywood, and the rifle has better range than the shotgun, which loses effectiveness beyond 50 yds generally. 20 rounds in the mag, with instant reloads. Forget FMJ/steelcore ammo... it will go through 2 houses.

Pat suggests getting an inexpensive 870/590 for backwoods and limited home use, and put the real money in an AR. That's my new plan, in addition to the ubiquitous handgun (usually on my person

) YMMV. Another alternative would be a lever gun in .357/.44mag with HP ammo. Fast and powerful. Cheers.
ps: Of course, I'd still like that Benelli M1, Santa.

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Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? (Who Shall Guard the Guards?)

The person formerly known as Covert Mission.

[This message has been edited by Mall Ninja (edited 08-10-2001).]

 

[Mus]

"The right HP won't usually overpenetrate sheetrock or plywood"

As a former hillybilly that spent alot of time shooting garbage i know that this is total bs. first off it will overpenetrate these materials basically any gun will, and if it doesnt it wont penetrate flesh/bone enough to hit anything that will kill. I dont mean to flame but go shoot some sheetrock scraps sometime. other then that i totally agree a rifle is a good thing to have in the house, but i would personally prefer a shotgun for sheer damage inflicted

 

[D.A.Mike]

In recent years many SWAT and CQB units have transitioned from the 9mm H&K MP-5 to the 5.56mm Colt M4 system. I think they've actually found that the .223 is LESS likely to overpenetrate through interior structures than 9mm ball. Plus, you've got additional range and accuracy with .223 that you can't get with 9mm. Wish I could find a link to those evaluations. I want to say the FBI conducted them about 4-5 years ago. If I find it I'll post here.

 

[Mus]

I know ive read somewhere that the .223 round is less likely to overpenetrate a persons body than a 9mm but no way does any non air rifle firearm fail to penetrate 2 sheets of sheetrock, and as for plywood and the like ive shot an sks through 18 inch pine trees and found exit wounds so im not buying that either...

 

[Oddjob]

The 223 does penetrate less then the 9mm (for example).....I was involved in a shooting where 17 rds of 223 rounds were firedv and not a single 223 round left the house. They broke up on the sheet rock and closet doors and never left the residence. My whole team went to the 223........
1) It will penetrate a kevlar vest
2) The ammo is inexpensive
3) It is a very versatile round.

 

[Mus]

I'd buy an external wall with say 2 inches of sheetrock several inches of heavy insulation and some plywood stopping a bullet but when you say the internal walls stopped bullets are you talking about more than one wall, or firing it into the wall at an angle so that it has to travel obliquely (sp?) through the material or what. same thing with the closet door because i could put a .223 slug through a hollow core door with a wrist rocket let alone a carbine. just trying to clarify.

 

[ACP]

I chimed in on this topic a few weeks ago, so I'll briefly restate my input.

1) shotguns are a stay-in-place weapon. That means stay in your bedroom with the barrel pointed at the door. Don't try to "clear your house" with it.

2) don't use slugs, period.

3) if you wait to "rack" your shotgun and scare the thief away with the sound, you have waited too long. As soon as you know someone's in the house, rack a round. If they're stupid and vile enough to actually come to the second floor and try to enter your bedroom, the sound of a pump gun cycling probably ain't gonna make that much difference to a psychopath or drug addict...

 

[LAK]

I don't worry that much about overpenetration - if cops miss 75% of the time, and strays were a problem, I think CNN would have "covered" that one by now.

There are plenty of rifle cartridges being made with reliably expanding, or even fragmenting bullets. At across the room or nearly contact distances I would expect the right ones to do very well.

Personally, for a shotgun, I would go with a "standard" (the old standard) 2 3/4 inch 12 gauge with something like O Buck, or a 20 gauge; either double-barrel with automatic ejectors or a pump. In certain circumstances though I might prefer slugs in reserve. All depends on the home structure/property size etc. But I like the idea of a light shotgun, and really prefer the double to a pump or semi-auto. I don't like folding stocks though.

 

[BillD]

IF cops do miss 75% or the time?

A little SWAT fracas recently had them expending over 370 rounds with exactly one hit, one of the SWAT members shot another. What do you think that did to the average?