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Discussion Starter #1
In a previous thread, http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60209, the effects of a side step and getting "inside" or "resetting" OODA loops was mentioned. BillD appropriately noted I took a page to say what could be said in a paragraph. Point taken. I would, however, like to draw your attention to the lawyer playing hide-n-seek with the shooter around the tree and ask that the variables be considered in the light of just how much is the OODA Loop really usually as a tactical tool as opposed to a tool to explain the decision process, just how much a single sidestep gets you off the line of fire, and just how little it takes for the shooter to adapt when you get inside or reset his OODA loop when you side step.

In watching the variables involved, the shooter is a grossly overweight person who does not appear to have much gun skill based on how he was shooting. He largely shot without aiming and was shooting at a distance of less than 3-4 feet.

The victim was more nimble, unarmed, and used a tree for shield that covered about 2/3 of his body width. He ducked side to side behind the tree to avoid the shooter's gun's muzzle. His attempt to step off the line of fire put him behind cover that was too slim but did remove him from the original line of fire.

This meant that the shooter had to find a new line of fire, acquire the target, and then shoot. Do you really feel that the shooter's OODA loop was sufficiently upset that he could not perform adequately? Do you feel he had trouble adapting to the change in circumstance?

Granted, it was close range, but by golly he wasn't exactly fooled by the move of the original shooting line. The only thing that kept the lawyer from being killed was that he had a shield that he moved behind when he moved off the line. Without th tree, moving off the original line would not have meant squat. The old, fat, poorly skilled shooter really did not have to do very much when his OODA loop was interrupted by the lawyer. The lawyer had to try to move his full body weight from side to side to dodge bullets. The old shooter shifted position some, but all he had to do was swing a snubbie revolver a couple of feet and he managed to do that quite nimbly compared to the lawyer's ability to shift his own entire weight.

I had argued that the movement on behalf of the person hoping to reset the OODA loop of the opposition would, in fact, reset his own OODA loop and thereby cause a delay as he had to re-assess the circumstances. In watching the lawyer's actions, this did seem to happen. As the lawyer changed position, he had to completely re-assess whether the shooter transitioned with him or anticipated the transition. At least in one case, that did happen and that apparently bothered the lawyer and affecting his abilities.

Sadly, it doesn't take a lot of brain power to play "shoot the lawyer bobbing behind the tree." Sure enough, the lawyer would move and the shooter would have to adjust aim and line of fire to try to hit the lawyer, but do you really think his OODA loop was significantly upset? No, of course not. For any sort of significant upset to occur to the OODA loop cycle, the response to upset the OODA loop needs to be unexpected. There really wasn't anything that lawyer could do that was all that unexpected relative to moving off the line of fire. He could be left of the tree or right of the tree. That wasn't upsetting to the OODA loop. Now, if he could have jumped straight up 20 feet, that would have upset the old shooter's OODA significantly, but that didn't happen.

Did the lawyer's actions save his life? Sure. Being a moving target is much better than being stationary and he did make use of a less than ideal type of cover, but it did help. He repeated the "one step off the line of fire drill" several times, not just once. With that in mind, the lawyer lived beyond the initial shooting because the shooter stopped the attack, did not transition to his second gun, and the lawyer received medical help fairly quickly.

Ask a boxer or martial arts person. You can't hardly reset another person's thought process if you make a move that they sort of expect you are going to make or if it does not represent a significant change. A single step off the line rarely works for a quarterback being charged by an unimpeded defender and often the effect turns out hugely bad.

My point here is not completely put down the concept as much as it is to suggest that if you are basing your life being saved because of some training you received or something you read that said taking one step to the side would upset the attackers OODA and buy you the time needed mount a successful counter attack, then you may not be around to tell us how well it worked. You need a better plan and one the attacker can't work with so well.

BillD, I will work on the single paragraph thing...next time, maybe.
 

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Yeah sure, I will believe when I see it.:)
 

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All this ooda loop and reset ooda is getting me so confused :confused: it's got me doing a reverse ooda loop. :(
 

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Ricky, would that be the dreaded "pool adoo"? 'Round here, that's when one has to winterize the cement pond for the season!:D
 

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If the fat slob doing the shooting had just grabbed onto the lawyer with one hand, put the gun on him with the other hand, and pulled the trigger five times we would have never seen the video on tv.

The shooter had no gun handling skills and is more than likely mentally incompetent/retarded/insane. People that age dont often have trusts if they are in their right minds.
 

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Brian Dover said:
Ricky, would that be the dreaded "pool adoo"? 'Round here, that's when one has to winterize the cement pond for the season!:D
Holy cowpie batman, you're onto something there dude. I'm caught in the loop or fell in the pool and I can't get out. Hep me , Hep me.:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Mus said:
If the fat slob doing the shooting had just grabbed onto the lawyer with one hand, put the gun on him with the other hand, and pulled the trigger five times we would have never seen the video on tv.

The shooter had no gun handling skills and is more than likely mentally incompetent/retarded/insane. People that age dont often have trusts if they are in their right minds.
Most likely true on all accounts. The situation was very unique. Others have commented on the lawyer's excellent use of available cover. It was good and it was horrible, all at the same time. He would have done much better, it seems, had he opted for a quick serpentine sprint. The "fat slob" did not seem to display any quick pursuit skills needed to deal with such an evasion tactic, nor the shooting skills to deal with such a tactic. By using the tree, he did use cover, but he left himself in the immediate vicinity of danger and remained effectively trapped there. Here, it should be pointed out that he fled to the tree, but then stopped there instead of continuing.

At the point he stopped, he immediately limited the number of things he could do while remaining behind the tree. As such, it didn't take long before nothing he was doing was new. Playing peek-a-boo didn't surprise the shooter initially and 3 or so sets of peek-a-boo failed to improve on the the initial failure.

FYI, there is a very good reason why many lawyers who cannot carry into court do carry portable armor. The stereotypical use of whatever is at hand as a shield, such as holding up a book or briefcase comes to mind. It is easy and fairly cheap to install a kevlar panel in a briefcase. It is both functional, portable, and in the case of the lawyer, would be with him nearly all the time.
 

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Saw the video and read post by DNS (liked the video better:D ).

To mount a successful counterattack (after side stepping to the tree/upsetting the shooter's OODA loop/more side stepping as necessary as DNS stated), a person needs to have something to counterattack with.

I have always read that while moving off the line of attack, a person is ALSO drawing their firearm (if not already inhand) and returning fire.

So yes, in the video I do feel the shooter's OODA loop was disrupted ENOUGH for an ARMED individual to return fire with a very high probability of surviving.

JMO
 

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The best way to disrupt an opponent's OODA loop is to take an unexpected action....an explosive counter-attack when meek submission is expected, closing into a blunt object or empty-hand attack rather than backing off, et cetera. An expected response is...well...expected and doesn't disrupt the process very much.

Rosco
 

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I seem to recall being told once that we move when we draw in order to train ourselves to move when we fight. We limit it to a sidestep or 3 primarily for range safety reasons.
The OODA loop is a good explanation for how we process data in a fight, and provides a framework to teach the importance of having built-in responses.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We probably have all been taught about the OODA loop in a class and we are told to reset or get inside the OODA loop of our attacker, but most of the folks teaching this sort of practice actually have very little understanding of what it takes to actually reset an OODA Loop. When you have received instruction pertaining to OODA Loops, were you also instructed as to what types of behaviors will reset the OODA loop versus those that won't? Were you also instructed on how to determine the mental condition of the person in question so as to be able to respond as needed. Obviously, it is going to be harder to reset OODA loops on some people in some situations and easier in others. Expecting overly simple and not unexpected responses to reset a person's OODA loop is naive and potentially very dangerous to your survival in the confrontation.

If somebody tells you that simply stepping off the line is a tactic that is going to save your life because it will reset the aggressor's OODA loop, then that person does not fully understand what is or is not likely to gain the results you want and sadly, you get to be the one who determines first hand how such a lack of understanding can have a negative impact on you.
 

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Like Rosco, I've always found the best way to loop someone's ooda is an immediate and devastating offense.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I don't know what caliber of revovler the shooter was using, but I just saw an interview with Curry, the lawyer, on TV. He reported that he was first shot when the shooter asked if he was Curry. After he said, "Yes" the shooter shot him the first time. Curry had not seen the gun and still could not see it when he started to flee to the tree. In all, he had five shots to the left arm and one to the neck. Minimally and with a bent arm, three shots could have produced the 6 wounds, if each shot penetrated one part of the arm first and then went on to either penetrate another part of the arm (if the arm was bent) and/or neck. It does not sound like the first shot was a double injury as he would not have had his arm/hand up in a defensive posture before the first shot, so at least 4 shots struck the lawyer and as many as 6.

If the lawyer was resetting the shooter's OODA loop by changing position, the OODA Loop wasn't reset by much as the lawyer kept getting shot.
 

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I agree, and whatever effect took place is because of the mental slowness of the assailant and the assailants poor gun handling skills. The fact is multiple hits were scored. Its luck of the draw that none of those shots scored hits on something vitally important.

At those ranges I personally would have gone hand to hand immediately. Averted the muzzle, trapped the arm and executed a takedown. Im not going to sit there and let some fool empty his gun while I do the two step around a tree. Any one of those shots could have drilled him in the heart or eye or whatever.
 

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Unless we have been shot, saying what we would do in the situation is premature. We hope we would react in a certain way but there is no track record to suggest that once we were shot we would go on the offensive. We might stand there in disbelief and get shot some more.

This also shows how ineffectual peripheral hits are with a handgun.
 

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BillD said:
Unless we have been shot, saying what we would do in the situation is premature. We hope we would react in a certain way but there is no track record to suggest that once we were shot we would go on the offensive.
I dont have a track record of being shot but I also dont have a track record of getting jumped and then standing there in disbelief taking repeated blows. Your instinctive reaction to any kind of attack is to put your hands up in a defensive posture and then you go from there.

I have no reason to think that I would react to getting shot any different than being seriously injured by other means in a violent attack. Barring physical incapacitation, the only thing getting in the way of taking immediate action is psychological, and is going to be suprise in the face of an unexpected event. This just drives home the importance of awareness and reinforcing proper reactions through training and practice.

BillD said:
We might stand there in disbelief and get shot some more.
Good luck with that game plan.
 

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This is gonna sound bad, but what does "OODA loop " mean?
 
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