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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a 9/22 TCM on a whim, and while the 22 is fun, I really have no use for it. I kept the 9mm barrel and added a Nowlin barrel in 9x23 and keep it in my truck as I consider it way too big/heavy for carry. My carry gun is a DW Guardian in 9x23.

I now have the 22TCM barrel and an old AMT frame with a SA 9mm slide that is screaming it wants to be a family. There were several threads about single stack 22TCMs, but I never saw a completed one. Has anyone tried this? Any successes or failures?

Thanks

Gil
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
OK - I got 100 plus views and zero replies. Either no one wants a single stack TCM or I need a serious upgrade on my deoderant!

Here is where I am so far: I completely disassembled the the TCM slide and check all parts to find out exactly what was unique about it. The slide appears to be a standard 9mm/38S breachface slide (as much as any since there are no Mil-spec 9mm drawings and every manufacturer is a little different)

I did find the following differences between to the TCM top end and that of my 9mm S/A slide assembly:

1. The barrel has an intergral ramp that doesn't sit below the frame ramp but does provide support for all of the case forward of the extractor groove.
2. The firing pin stop is highly tapered to ensure the hammer is contacted high and the slide has maximum leverage to cock the hammer with the small 22 TCM recoil energy.
3. The recoil spring is very light - about eight pounds
4. T TCM ejector is sprung for the slightly smaller (than 9mm) TCM case rim.

Other than these items the TCM slide seems identical to a "standard" 9mm 1911 slide.

I wanted the 22 TCM to feed from a standard 38 Super single stack magazine without having to modify the feed lips. So I tried my first experiment - I loaded eight rounds into a Wilson 38S magazine and hand cycled them thru my single stack 9x23 set-up. Everyone fed smoothly and was captured by the ejector so they ejected well.

Next experiment was to see if the 22 TCM would feed into a standard feed ramp under recoil - I loaded a single 22 TCM in the magazine and added a 9x23 round on top of it. I closed the slide, chambering the 9x23 round and fired. The slide cycled and loaded the TCM perfectly. So I diid the experiment seven more times - every time the TCM would load into the 9x23 chamber. And the last time I could not resist firing the TCM round. Of course the little 22 was a poor fit in the .355 barrel and recoil was non-existant so the slide didn't cycle. And the case was ruined! But I now know that the there is nothing magic about getting the 22 TCM to feed in a single stack

This weekend I am going to slice open some fired TCM cases and see what the case thickness looks like just forward of the rim. If indeed these are based on the 223there will be enough case wall to operate in a non supported barrel just like the 9x23. If I feel good about the case, I will remove the small ramp at the lower of the barrel and cut a small feeding ramp into the chamber end. I will then fit the TCM barrel to my S/A slide, use the TCM slide stop and eight pound spring and mount it all on the old AMT frame. I will fire one round with no magazine and wearing a heavy glove and a face shield (in case I am wrong about the case strength!). If the fired round shows no buldge at the feed ramp location, I will load a full magazine and try it out. If it works I will have a single stack TCM22. Unfortunately, it really won't be of anymore use to me than the double stack TCM22 but thats what guntinkering is all about.

DISCLAIMER: I am not finished testing and I AM NOT saying this is safe. Any information in this post is worth exactly what you paid for it. Try this at your own risk.

Gil
 

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Good luck.

I remember a vague reference to a possible issue where the nose of a round in the mag could impact the primer on a round in the chamber during a malfunction - it seemed unlikely, but is something to think about if you're doing TRB malfunction clearing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Dave,

Looking at the small sharp bullet point, I understand the concern. The 22 TCM is certainly not a round for a tube style magazine!

However, is there any real difference in the danger posed by loose round in the chamber in a single stack design vs the factory double stack? It is important that the round be captured by the ejector and therefore when the slide is cycled, positively eject any unfired round before feeding a fresh round. But the damger of this doesn't seem to be any greater with a single stack standard barrel, than with the TCM barrel and double stack frame.

If I am missing something, please let me know your thoughts. As I said before, the original TMC pistol is now, and will forever be, a 9x23. The single stack 22 TCM is just a hobby project and I really don't need a hobby that will blow my hand off!

If the single stack design works out, I guess my next move would be to mount the barrel and slide on a full size single stack aluminum frame for a real lightweight trail gun.
 

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Don't know exactly.
It would seem that it would take one round feeding with a broken extractor, then a manual cycling of the slide.

But that doesn't change from single to double stack, so perhaps I'm conflating two design quirks of TCM?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I just noticed that I keep posting ejector when I mean extractor. Based on Dave's comments, if this thing works and I decide to keep it as a 22TCM, the final step will be an AFTEC extractor to help ensure positive extraction of any live round. Will post the sectioned TCM case photos And the modified barrel photos Sunday.

Gil
 

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Interesting. I also bought my TCM becuz I wanted a hicap 9mm. Lately I've also thought about adding a 9x23 barrel. How does yours feed? On mine there really isn't a feed ramp on the frame. The rounds seem to impact right at the top of the frame and bounce right into the barrel. Also, how do the 9x23 cartridges feed from the TCM mags? Any issues? How is the case support in the Nowlin 9x23 barrel, any bulged cases? Are you using Winchester or Corbin ammo? Or possibly reloads? Anyway, I look forward to hearing your experiences. Good luck.
Bob
 

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I just noticed that I keep posting ejector when I mean extractor. Based on Dave's comments, if this thing works and I decide to keep it as a 22TCM, the final step will be an AFTEC extractor to help ensure positive extraction of any live round. Will post the sectioned TCM case photos And the modified barrel photos Sunday.

Gil
You may not be aware that the TCM extractor is a specific design. The early guns (like mine) came with two extractors, one for 9mm and the other for TCM. While the specified 9mm unit would do fine with them, it wouldn't reliably extract the TCM brass. On the other hand the TCM-designated extractor yanked both cartridges just fine. Curious, I miked the two and found that the TCM had a thicker base rim than the Luger round and the hook of it's extractor was made longer to allow for that difference. Since TCM brass is originally necked-down and shortened .223/5.56 (not necked 9mm as had been erroneously reported in some publications), it carries the same base dimensions as .223/5.56. Therefore it is likely that an aftermarket 9mm extractor would also not reliably work in your experimental pistol. (Note: Shortly after the start of 2013 Armscor stopped putting two extractors in the TCM kit, dropping the 9mm piece as unnecessary.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Bob,
The feed ramp in the TCM seems to mate with the Nowlin barrel just like the one in my single stacks. The Nowlin barrel has a small feed ramp and good case support, however with Winchester brass, case support is never an issue. Even in some rechambered 9mm barrels, I have never bulged a case. With extreme handloads, the primers will back out before the case will be damaged. For about the last two years, Corbon has used Winchester brass for their 9x23 loads. But some of the old stuff was Starline brass and this is nowhere near as strong as the Winchester stuff. I have never blown one out, but I have had some factory ammo give me bulged cases and I threw them away rather than keep the brass.

The ex-TCM feeds 9x23s thru all three of my magazines (all Armscor factory TCMs) and works very well. Nowlin builds a good barrel, and with the Winchester case, a ramp is needed only in an aluminum frame. If you are interested in the 9x23, please build one! This is a great caliber and I don’t want it to die. There are only five factory loads (three from Corbon and two from Winchester) but, except for the Corbon Powerball, all are great defense loads. Actually I use the Winchester soft points for carry. About fifteen inches of expansion and they open reliably to .60 inch. No worries about clogged hollow points, or “what ifs” on winter clothing.

One thing I would caution you on – think about what you will actually do with a double stack 9x23. IMO it is too big and heavy for every day carry and the 9x23 is too light for a woods gun. The large grip is clumsy to me and it really isn’t something I needed. My EDC is a LW Commander 9x23 and, while I am aware I am no great gunfighter and may miss more than a few times, if five double taps won’t get the job done, I am probably not going to be around to post anymore.

But other than the issue of why you would want one, the TCM makes a great 9x23 conversion. Mine uses a flat bottom firing pin stop, a 17 # Wilson flat spring and small guide rod, a tuned 9mm extractor and a shortened ejector (so the longer 9x23 live rounds can be ejected without fear of hitting a primer) I like the Nowlin but several others make quality 9x23 barrels. Dane Burns recommended the AFTEC extractors for the 9x23 for longer life, but that may be overkill. I have done both and haven’t seen a difference.

OEE
My homemade 9x23 extractors (retensioned 9mm Wilsons) have seemed to work well in hand cycling the 22 TCMs thru the single stack. The drawings I have show the 9mm rim to be 0.050 in thick (rear of brass to front edge where extractor grabs) and the TCM to be 0.049 in. So the extractor hook is in the right length. The rim diameter of the 9mm is 0.392 and the TCM is only 0.370. So just a little extra tension and I should be good to go.

Unfortunately, I spent the day wrapping pipes and getting the house and shop ready for tonight’s freeze and did not get my 22 TCM cases cut or the barrel feed ramp finished. Stay tuned next week!
 

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Bob,
The feed ramp in the TCM seems to mate with the Nowlin barrel just like the one in my single stacks. The Nowlin barrel has a small feed ramp and good case support, however with Winchester brass, case support is never an issue. Even in some rechambered 9mm barrels, I have never bulged a case. With extreme handloads, the primers will back out before the case will be damaged. For about the last two years, Corbon has used Winchester brass for their 9x23 loads. But some of the old stuff was Starline brass and this is nowhere near as strong as the Winchester stuff. I have never blown one out, but I have had some factory ammo give me bulged cases and I threw them away rather than keep the brass.

The ex-TCM feeds 9x23s thru all three of my magazines (all Armscor factory TCMs) and works very well. Nowlin builds a good barrel, and with the Winchester case, a ramp is needed only in an aluminum frame. If you are interested in the 9x23, please build one! This is a great caliber and I don’t want it to die. There are only five factory loads (three from Corbon and two from Winchester) but, except for the Corbon Powerball, all are great defense loads. Actually I use the Winchester soft points for carry. About fifteen inches of expansion and they open reliably to .60 inch. No worries about clogged hollow points, or “what ifs” on winter clothing.

One thing I would caution you on – think about what you will actually do with a double stack 9x23. IMO it is too big and heavy for every day carry and the 9x23 is too light for a woods gun. The large grip is clumsy to me and it really isn’t something I needed. My EDC is a LW Commander 9x23 and, while I am aware I am no great gunfighter and may miss more than a few times, if five double taps won’t get the job done, I am probably not going to be around to post anymore.

But other than the issue of why you would want one, the TCM makes a great 9x23 conversion. Mine uses a flat bottom firing pin stop, a 17 # Wilson flat spring and small guide rod, a tuned 9mm extractor and a shortened ejector (so the longer 9x23 live rounds can be ejected without fear of hitting a primer) I like the Nowlin but several others make quality 9x23 barrels. Dane Burns recommended the AFTEC extractors for the 9x23 for longer life, but that may be overkill. I have done both and haven’t seen a difference.

OEE
My homemade 9x23 extractors (retensioned 9mm Wilsons) have seemed to work well in hand cycling the 22 TCMs thru the single stack. The drawings I have show the 9mm rim to be 0.050 in thick (rear of brass to front edge where extractor grabs) and the TCM to be 0.049 in. So the extractor hook is in the right length. The rim diameter of the 9mm is 0.392 and the TCM is only 0.370. So just a little extra tension and I should be good to go.

Unfortunately, I spent the day wrapping pipes and getting the house and shop ready for tonight’s freeze and did not get my 22 TCM cases cut or the barrel feed ramp finished. Stay tuned next week!
Durn that cold weather. :barf: Anyway,Thank you very much for all the info, very helpful. And I would love to see the pix of the feedramp.(Please?):) I wish Dane Burns was still taking work, (not that I could afford his prices :biglaugh:) He's only about half an hour or so away. Well, except at rush hour. Thanks again. Oh, yeah... looking forward to the Saints and Seahawk game next week.
Bob
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I am sure most of the USA had much worse weather, but it was 27 in Baton Rouge last night and I think the swamp froze!

My phone isn't the best camera and I am not the best photographer. Also, this is my first attemp at posting photos so I hope the images are worth viewing.

The first photo is the unmolested TCM barrel showing the lower "ramp" built into the barrel.

The second photo is the almost completed modified 22 TCM barrel with the extra feed ramp cut off. The ramp was not quite centered and the barrel face need to be filed down just a little more in this photo.

The last photo is a sectioned rear of a TCM case and a scribed round showing how much case support I have left.

I have assembled the old AMT/Springfield with the TCM barrel and it feeds very well. Tonight I will try to fire it and see how the cases stand up to the lack of support. NOTE: The TCM brass is nowhere near as thick as the 9x23 Winchester, so I may get some bulged cases.

REMEMBER: This is an experiment, it may not work. I do not recommend these modifications to anyone else.
 

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This is becoming really interesting project!
Keep us posted!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
It Works - almost!

I will post some pictures this weekend, but here is the latest update on the project. I finished the barrel feed ramp and assembled the gun with the original recoil spring from the 22 TCM Double Stack. I went to the range and loaded one round then removed the magazine. I pulled the trigger and it went off just fine - no indications of a burst casing. I tabled the pistol to find and examine the brass case, concerned about seeing a bulge at the area over the feed ramp. There was not mark whatsoever! Looked just like any 22TCM fired casing!

So next I load another single round into a magazine, drop the slide and leave the magazine in place. Fire the round and the slide cycled and locked open.

OK, I am confident this project is complete. Load nine rounds into the 38 Super magazines I was using, drop the slide, fire and JAM! The next round won't feed.:(

Five more attempts, same thing. If more than one round is in the magazine, the gun won't feed. So, not only did I build a single stack, I have a single shot.:eek:

Back to the workshop, and I find two Wilson 9mm magazines. Since all my nines are now 9x23s and I don't want to ruin any of the 38 Super mags, I decide to modify these 9mms. I remove the baseplates, the rear spacer, spring and follower. The I shorten the lips like the ones on the TCM double stack magazines. I add a Wilson 38S plastic follower and spring and put them together. They look good and the gun feeds all nine by hand. This weekend I will get out and see if it works at the range. If so, I will post some photos of the magazine.

Notice this project gets completed just as Armscor announces a new single stack 22 TCM!!!:confused: A least I will have a source for decent mags.
 
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