Situation Walkthrough: I'm on a hijacked plane and. . .

2958 Views 47 Replies 35 Participants Last post by Double Naught Spy, Sep 25, 2001

Nathan

Discussion Starter · Sep 12, 2001

Situation Walkthrough: I'm on a hijacked plane and. . .

I thought this was proper today. Use all the info we know. The hijackers have bone or some kind of knives. They have ordered us to the back of the plane and are killing stewardesses one by one to force the pilots to open the door. So far the pilots are locked in. The hijackers have told us to call home as we are all going to die. No sign of guns. There are 80 americans on board. Roughly even split males and females. There are 3 to 6 hijackers.

I'm going to fight. If I have my folder it will be out, if not it will be my SS hook prosthesis(arm) and bare knuckles or what ever weapon I can get while making my move. If you are the rest of the 80, can I count on you? Some of us will get slashed, maybe die from slashes.

Will we win? 80 vs. 3-6. I say we win, but only if we all lunge and start kicking some butt at once with no fear of death.

I need this disclaimer because I won't Monday morning quarterback this one. I just want to learn and estimate what percentage of the plane will follow me and not give up even if I die. BTW I don't completely blame those on board for two reasons. Hijackers usually land to negociate release and we really do not know what happened on board.

One final note, do pilots and steward/stewardesses need to be armed? Should it be required that they be armed and ready to kill with, for example, 1911's with a new, yet to be designed, high tech frangible ammo which is fatel, but will not penetrate the hull? If we are required to disarm to fly, I think that pilots and crew ought to be required to be armed, trained and wear body armor. It might suck serving cokes with body armor and a 45 under your jacket, but it sucks for us to have our 45's in with the baggage.

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shane45-1911

· #2 · Sep 12, 2001

I believe it simply takes someone to make the first move. In the real world, most people are followers, not leaders - unfortunately it's simply a fact of life. I have found however, that if there IS a leader in a moment of crisis, a lot of the followers tend to be quick to react.

Perhaps if a "leader" was on board any of the four doomed aircraft, the situation may have been different.

I believe that pilots should be armed and trained. I also believe that the cockpit door should be re-inforced, and once in flight - IT DOES NOT OPEN - no matter what is happening in the cabin. I'm not trying to be callous, but the harsh reality is (and always was) that it is better to sacrifice a 100 people to save 1000. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Rosco Benson

· #3 · Sep 12, 2001

You can be sure that the days of carrying on a small folder are numbered. The FAA will doubtless go to a "zero tolerance" policy.

Probably more important is that the paradigm for hijacking hostage behavior has now shifted. Up to now, the common wisdom has been to meekly comply. This approach has generally worked well and most hostages have been, after a sometimes drawn-out ordeal, released unharmed. Now there will be concern among the hostages that they are being taken on a suicide mission, rather than to Havana. This will cause a greater number of these hostages to be willing to act and attack their tormentors.

Rosco

Nathan

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 12, 2001

It sounds like Shane probably has my back. Do you Mr. Benson?

Car Knocker

· #5 · Sep 12, 2001

My wife and I were discussing this very same subject last night after word got out that the hijackers used knives to gain control of the planes. Neither of us felt we would sit back and do nothing, just sitting there like sheep! We've discussed various hostage situations over the years and feel that an active defense is oftentimes the best approach. Sure, someone may get injured or killed, but that's a hell of a lot better than being led like sheep to the slaughter.

You have to admit, though, that the hijackers had read the American psyche to a "T". They KNEW that there was little danger posed by the typical passenger (sheeple).

Rosco Benson

· #6 · Sep 12, 2001

Originally posted by Nathan:
It sounds like Shane probably has my back. Do you Mr. Benson?

Yes. Once you, I, or anyone else commences an attack on the hostage takers, there is no going back. It is win or die trying at that point.

Rosco

LAK

· #7 · Sep 12, 2001

Count me in. If I knew the alternative was going into the ground (or anything else) at 300-400 mph I don't think I would have to think twice about.

If there were 80 passengers aboard, and not even a single knife among us, my thoughts might run thus;

If possible, confront the 8, 10, or more fittest males and put it this way: "Are we going to die like rabbits, or are we we going to put up a fight? They have the knives (or even a gun or two) but WE have the NUMBERS. Some of us could live (indicate to the older folk, women and children), and I for one am willing to die if neccessary, so that they can live. If I am going to die, I don't want to die like a rabbit and a coward... ". (good rousing stuff)

Then, assuming the support was there, propose that (I am not, physically speaking, the biggest, strongest, fittest guy of the group on average) the strongest, biggest, meanest, guy to take the lead. If they all decline, then I am going to do it, if I know they are going to follow. If possible, let everyone else know, down to the last man, that they better be ready to follow behind and mop up if we don't get everyone of the badguys in the isle - or "be prepared to just sit there and die like rabbits".

If there was some time/opportunity to plan and do so undetected, the lead guy might have the benefit of a suitable piece of hand luggage ready to have out in front of him. Second, third, fourth, etc man be issued a lady's nylon, doubled up (or socks) with a few ounces of coin/jewelry etc in them. The rest carrying anything similar, or even just handfuls of coin, jewelry, watches ANYTHING hard/weighty with which to pelt any flankers and buy time for the lead men to turn and deal with them after the initial contact.

Preferably when the badguys were all (or most) in the isle (or one of them if a multi-isle plane), the lead man give a signal, charge them screaming like banshees, and hit them like a ton of bricks!!!!! And fight for our lives.

If I could not get a single person to agree (which I doubt, if there were at least some who realised that the alternative was certain death), I'd hope I would have the courage to to say the same thing "I am not dying like a rabbit - and neither are you. WE have the numbers, they can not kill us all. I am going, you better follow - we hit these guys like a ton of bricks". Say a quick prayer ..... try and do my best impression of a banshee and go.

I tend to agree to that people will follow a leader.

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Mute

· #8 · Sep 12, 2001

I rather die fighting than let the bastards determine when I die. Also, regarding being outnumbered, remeber that airplanes have tight aisles. You could force them to fight you one at a time because they can't manuever around to fight. Keep it in the aisles.

As mentioned, if you make the first move, there's a good chance it will spur others to action and possible put the numbers back in your favor.

That's my take on it.

El Roto

· #9 · Sep 12, 2001

I think it will be harder for future hijackers to herd passengers. Before, most hijack situations were resolved with few fatalities among passengers and crew; you let the airplane land, waited, negotiated until you gained the hostages release or stormed the aircraft.

It's my understanding the majority of instances in which most or all of the hostages died were usually mid-air explosions or a crew member using the plane as a suicide device, so the passengers didn't really know there was a problem. Now everyone knows there's the real chance you're in danger of becoming part of a manned missle. I'm betting the "sit back and comply and all will be well" school of thought will give way to "fight for your life".

Would I be willing to take a knife up to the hilt so others could overpower a hijacker? Yes. I'm ready to make that sacrifice (though I prefer to follow Gen. Patton's advice on winning wars and make the other dumb bastard die for his country).

I feel very strongly that Air Marshalls should have been back on duty as soon as the "air rage" phenomenon appeared, but perhaps this will finally get them on board once again. I also agree that a flight deck crewmember should not leave the cockpit. If Air Marshalls are brought back, there'd be no need for them to concentrate on anything other than the one thing they're trained to do proficiently: Fly the airplane.

God help us all.

------------------
Steve "El Roto" G.

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John Forsyth

· #10 · Sep 12, 2001

I am in. If it's my day to die, they are coming with me. We all have weapons with us, pencils, pens, keys, whatever. The key is action.

I do not know for sure, but I believe this is what happened on the aircraft that crashed in PA.

------------------
John

"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks and leaving Huey and Dewey and Louie without an aunt and uncle. It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away".
Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

JRJ

· #11 · Sep 12, 2001

If they crash the plane you die, if they blow up the plane you die, if I try to stop them I might die but if people follow then someone gets to see their family again!!! I wonder why most others can't follow this simple logic.

If someone beat me starting the fight then I could assure them they wouldn't be fighting alone.

oldcolt

· #12 · Sep 12, 2001

First, we can critique this subject to no end. Take a hard look at the real scenario as told to a family member by one of the hostages.

Our plane has been hijacked by 3 or 4 persons with knives. They have stated that they have a bomb and will detonate it if we do not cooperate.

Reality: at this point you have no idea what the hijackers intentions are. You have no CNN to rely on for intelligence. You have no idea that the country has been attacked. What do you do?

The pilot of plane 3 (in PA) probably did receive some information and ended up turfing the plane. He knew their intentions and did the right thing, sparing thousands of lives based on his actions.

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Nathan

Discussion Starter · #13 · Sep 12, 2001

LAK,
First thanks for your support. Unfortunately, I don't think a planning meeting could be scheduled! You would just have to go and count on the others being Americans and coming with.

oldcolt,
Please read my disclaimer again. We must not Monday morning quarterback this. We must use CNN or whatever intelligence we have to see how terrorism has changed and update our tactics and response plan. Also, as for a bomb. Bombs require a detonator or some device to set it off. No device = no bomb. Work with what you see and know. Heresay is of little value. Besides, if they had a bomb, why would they want to fly?

Scurvydog

· #14 · Sep 12, 2001

Nathan, I am a leader, not a follower. I would have your back if for whatever reason I could not act before you did. I probably might ask others to be ready but I would not count on anyone. I have in the past taken a K-Bar Marine knife to the hilt, in my stomach. Could've been deadly, but not on the spot. Adrenaline keeps you going. As for the pilots/crew being armed. Absolutely. If it was my plane, I was the pilot, Iwould insist on it. Air Marshalls should be assigned anyway. Better to die trying than doing nothing. At least that way it would be on my terms, not thiers(highjackers)...Rob

Greg1911

· #15 · Sep 13, 2001

I am with you guys should I die by a knife or should I die in a plane crash I would of tried to take the ****ers out. What are these air marshalls I have heard about. I was thinking two plain clothed officer on ever flight in the US with pistols and rounds that will not penetrate the plane cheaper than the alternative.

GLV

· #16 · Sep 13, 2001

I may be 70yoa, but I am still 6' 175lbs. I wear a vest when I fly, and perhaps you have heard of a Mad Dog knife?

I will not be a sheep, tho the media and our government tries to train Americans to be sheep. GLV

Tim Burke

· #17 · Sep 13, 2001

Nathan, you must not know Rosco very well if you have to ask if he's got got your back. If you don't move fast, it'll be too late for him to cover your back, the best you'll be able to do is cover his.
The clue on the plane that these hijackings were different was that the hijackers brought their own pilots.
You don't get a choice about whether or not you're going to die. You might get a choice in how or when, but not if you sit there when they've brought their own pilots.
Media reports are now suggesting that some of the passengers on United 93 figured out what was forthcoming and took action. While less than a complete success, there is no telling how many lives they saved.

Jagman

· #18 · Sep 13, 2001

For the last several hours, I've found myself preoccupied with the same problem. How could 50 or more people let 4 or 5 individuals dictate their fate?

Once a week I help instruct at my master's taekwondo school. Tonight, I decided to introduce my students to the concept of massed defense (i.e., two or more persons acting in concert to subdue an attacker). I had the largest person in class face the others and posed the following problem. You are all confined in a room and cannot escape. This person is threatening to cause you and the others harm. What is your attacker's most glaring weakness? The thinking was astonishingly one dimensional; everyone thought in terms of individual combat and basically named their favorite body part. No one recognized the obvious disparity in numbers. Furthermore, no one immediately appreciated the need to go to another's aid if someone else initiated action against the attacker.

Not only are terrorists masters of manipulation, but most citizens are not used to thinking in terms of practical self-defense. Even less are we evidently prepared to act in cooperation with others for mutual defense.

As an LEO, I've also seen the exact opposite occur. I can't count the times I've witnessed one officer contact a suspect in order to initiate a control hold only to have about a dozen fellow officers join in what has jokingly been referred to as a "pig pile". While numbers often rule, it defeats what the initial contact officer was trying to do.

The experts have told us to submit to the threat of force. Give the hijacker, mugger, rapist, et al, what they want and maybe they'll just go away. When we do think of acting in self-defense, we can envision only individual actions --- even though fellow citizens may be standing by. Maybe that's the ultimate depridation visited by the "me" generation. It seems we have a whole lot of re-thinking to do as a society and as individuals. Perhaps all we can do is resolve to go down fighting and hope others will do their part.

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ACP

· #19 · Sep 13, 2001

Count me in. A CIA letter opener would come in awfully handy in this situation. So would a broken bathroom faucet handle in a sock, or a can of spray deodorizer in someone's face, or the jagged edge of a plastic serving tray, or the buckle end of a seat belt, or a couple pieces of leather shoelace wrapped together to form a garrote, or a Parker pen inserted a la tracheotomy, or a bum's rush with my knee two inches into a hijacker's sinus cavity, or.....

Paladin

· #20 · Sep 13, 2001

Okay, this is one lefty liberal that, given the hijacking circumstances, doesn't believe we should sit back and quiver in our seats. I'm there with you. It's a time when politics means nothing and retaking the plane or disarming the terrorists is up to a group of strong leaders among the passengers.

I can only think of the terror those passengers must have felt making that last loop and heading directly into the WTC. I'd rather be dead by then, a result of my attempt to retake the plane. I'll be at the front of the rush, along with others here, as I can see. In defense of one's country, liberals and conservatives just become Americans.

How's this for an idea? Next time any of us get on a plane, wear your 1911.com tee shirts or golf shirts so we can identify each other. Nothing wrong with picking out your teammates before we head into the air. That is if they'll let you on board with that big 1911 on your chest.

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"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." --Thomas Jefferson to Charles Yancey, 1816.

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