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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone here have or handle this AR15?



From their website:

"This is the .21 Genghis made by Alexander Arms, a .21 caliber rifle combining the excellent AR15/M16 style operating system with the ballistically supreior 5.45mm x 39mm Soviet cartridge
The .21 Genghis is an effective weapon in it's own right with the 5.45m x 39 ammunition producting an effective wound cavity up to 30% greater than the .223/5.56 ammunition. As a training weapon, it allows all the function characteristics of the .223/5.56 weapon, but has 20% less recoil and approximately half the cost in ammunition. "

So for all those who complain that the 5.56 doesnt cause enough trauma to the target, this may be the AR15 for you. The 5.45 is well known to be a nasty piece of business...

I wonder if the AR15 platform makes the 5.45 a more accurate cartridge compared to when it is fired from an AK74

CLICK HERE FOR .21 GENGHIS
 

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Interesting piece. I wonder what type of magazines it uses? If they are special to the gun then only 10 rounders would be available. I remember seeing in the Shotgun News an AR-15 that was built to shoot 7.62x39 AND it uses original AK-47 magazines and drums!:rock: :rock:
 

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There are quite a few members of AR15.com that have the Genghis upper and have been pleased overall. The 5.45X39 is more accurate out of the AR platform, but the ammo is a limiting factor. In most cases you are going to get about 2" at 100 yards, although I have read reports of better-it is just finding what your particular rifle likes best.

the Genghis uses stock AR15 mags. The round feeds best out of 30 round mags with the black followers, not the enhanced green or orange ones. The round also feeds well out of stock 20 rounders. In either case, you cannot load to full capacity-something like 2-5 rounds short IIRC.

The AR47 lower is a great concept, and if I can ever get a screaming deal on a 7.62X39 AR upper, I might invest in one, as it eliminates what I personally feel is the weak link with 7.62X39 ARs-the magazines. However, the AR47 lower won't work for the Genghis-at least without some modification, as the 5.45X39 magazines are bigger front to back than a 7.62X39 mag.
 

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And what makes it more lethal?

Have you actually researched how overrated the 5.45x39 is in terms of terminal performance?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
without getting into a pissing contest, 5.45x39 is a very unstable bullet that yaws after only 3cm of penetration, and then tumbles causing an erratic wound with massive amounts of tissue damage.

Do the water jug test to gain more understanding on how the 5.45 works. Shooting plastic jugs filled with water show that 7.62x39, 7.62 NATO and 5.56 all go right through, while 5.45 makes a hole and blows a bigger whole out the back at a different angle of entry. I'm guessing 5.56 doesnt make a larger exit hole because water isnt dense enough to cause fragmentation, or maybe it's just my crappy surplus ammo.

That said, I've heared a million times about the poor performance of the 5.56mm. This round is said by experts to lack the power to be an effective small arms combat cartridge. I seem to recall two psychos in the Washington, DC area causing fatal injuries to 13 people with a single shot to each victim. 10 of them died almost immediately. One survivor, a 13 year old boy, only survived because he received almost immediate medical care. In the 2nd survivor, the bullet pierced her back, tore through her liver, collapsed a lung and exited her chest. Most of the shots were made at roughly 150 yards with an Bushmaster M4 carbine that features an alleged performance reducing 14.5" barrel.


I'd label that a vaild "field test" of the 5.56's lethality.
 

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Chris196 said:
And what makes it more lethal?

Have you actually researched how overrated the 5.45x39 is in terms of terminal performance?
Amen.

The pictures of wound profiles I have seen on it arent very impressive.

Yawing end over end a bit faster than the average FMJ bullet isnt nearly as good a wounding mechanism as fragmentation or just a flat out much larger bullet.
 

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Mus said:
Amen.

The pictures of wound profiles I have seen on it arent very impressive.

Yawing end over end a bit faster than the average FMJ bullet isnt nearly as good a wounding mechanism as fragmentation or just a flat out much larger bullet.
The field test mentioned above would seem to not bear out this remark. It seems the wounding mechanism of a yawing bullet works very well.
 

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Don't forget that one of the wounding mechanisms with the "poison bullet" form of 5.45x39 round, as originally used in the AK74, has to do with the small hollow space behind the tip of the bullet jacket, in front of the lead core, which enhances its instability (greater tendency to yaw in flight and also to upset on hitting anything solid).
It's sufficiently well designed to be acceptably accurate at fairly short ranges, that is, the degree of yaw does not cause the bullet to tumble or disintegrate in flight.

I have a lot of respect for Mr. Kalashnikov's AK design, insofar as "robustness" and simplicity go.

Still, I'm waiting for a bigger, heavier, longer range round than the 5.45x39 or 5.56x45, and one with better terminal ballistics and longer effective range than the 7.62x39.
 

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The downsides I see is no chrome-lined bore which I want if I'm shooting Russian ammo. Also the 5.45 ammo we get here in the states may have the hollow cavity but does not have the steel behind it to give the same effects that the real Russian 5.45 does. I don't think the terminal effects will be that different than a quality 5.56 round. This upper may be a fun plinker but I'd still stick to a 5.56 upper for self defense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
The 7.62 NATO M80 Ball cartidge begins to yaw after about 20-25cm of penetration in gelatin tissue simulant, and does one "flip" coming to rest in a base-first orientation after about 65 cm of total penetration. In comparison, the 5.56 mm M193 round used during the Vietnam behaves quite differently depending upon the impact velocity, and the thickness of tissue hit. At high striking velocities above about 2700 f.p.s. -- combat ranges less than about 100 meters -- the bullet usually fragments upon striking pieces of individual field equipment or bone, and at very close ranges of 50 yards or less will fragment in soft tissue even if no bones are hit, when the body part struck offers a thickness of 12 cm or more. In hits through the extremities the 5.56 mm M193 round and the 7.62x39 do not produce terribly severe wounds, but rather like those resembling lower velocity pistol rounds like the 9x19 Parabellum. A hit through the thigh muscle with a 5.56 mm round is quite another matter, and the casualty will be a long time in rehab. The current USSR rifle cartridge, the 5.45x39 has a long ogival-nosed 53-gr. mild steel cored projectile with a hollow cavity in the nose of the jacket. This does not deform upon impact in soft targets, but serves to shift the center of gravity of the projectile to the rear, increasing its overturning moment, and consequently, inducing an early yaw of the projectile within the first 7-10 cm of penetration. Although the lower striking energy and velocity of the AK-74 round reduce its kinetic energy compared to our 5.56 mm ammunition, its early soft-target yaw, and low recoil impulse, which aids control in burst fire, greatly increases the potential for multiple hits, and a calf or arm would from such a round would cause a much more severe wound which would require evacuation to a rear area, rather than treatment in a field medical facility.
 

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BillD said:
The field test mentioned above would seem to not bear out this remark. It seems the wounding mechanism of a yawing bullet works very well.
Uhhh you mean the water jug test? I hope you are kidding.

I'll take a small bullet that fragments on yaw like the 5.56 over a small bullet that just yaws and tumbles end over end like the 5.45 any day.



 

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Mus said:
Uhhh you mean the water jug test? I hope you are kidding.

I'll take a small bullet that fragments on yaw like the 5.56 over a small bullet that just yaws and tumbles end over end like the 5.45 any day.


No I meant the sniper test in Maryland and Virginia:

"That said, I've heared a million times about the poor performance of the 5.56mm. This round is said by experts to lack the power to be an effective small arms combat cartridge. I seem to recall two psychos in the Washington, DC area causing fatal injuries to 13 people with a single shot to each victim. 10 of them died almost immediately. One survivor, a 13 year old boy, only survived because he received almost immediate medical care. In the 2nd survivor, the bullet pierced her back, tore through her liver, collapsed a lung and exited her chest. Most of the shots were made at roughly 150 yards with an Bushmaster M4 carbine that features an alleged performance reducing 14.5" barrel.


I'd label that a vaild "field test" of the 5.56's lethality."
 

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BillD said:
No I meant the sniper test in Maryland and Virginia
How does the sniper test in Maryland and Virginia prove that a fragmenting bullet isnt a better wounding mechanism than a yawing bullet?

At closer ranges if there was fragmentation they would have likely died faster. Since I use a 5.56 rifle for defensive purposes thats what Im interested in. Not whether or not a woman or child 150 yards away fired into COM or the head will eventually die.
 

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It says that a fragmenting bullet is as good as a larger one that doesn't fragment. You mentioned a larger bullet being better. I am saying not necessarily.
I think the current, fragmenting after yaw, 5.56 is the way to go, as born out by the sniper case. And they weren't all women and children. And they died quickly, most of them, not eventually.
 

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BillD said:
It says that a fragmenting bullet is as good as a larger one that doesn't fragment. You mentioned a larger bullet being better. I am saying not necessarily.
No I didnt.

What I said was:

Mus said:
Yawing end over end a bit faster than the average FMJ bullet isnt nearly as good a wounding mechanism as fragmentation or just a flat out much larger bullet.
To quote you quoting CB, "Reading is fundamental."

BillD said:
I think the current, fragmenting after yaw, 5.56 is the way to go, as born out by the sniper case.
I agree the fragmenting 5.56 bullets are effective. I dont believe a bullet like the 5.45 that tumbles end over end without fragmenting is as effective as the 5.56 or a bigger bullet that tumbles end over end more slowly (like any FMJ) in a larger caliber.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
In the wound profile picture you see that the 5.45 yaws very quickly and that its path would be long within the target because of yaw taking place in the early stage of penetration. A 5.45 could enter in your torso, blow off your testicals or shoulder blade upon exiting depending on how it yaws, destroying all the tissue between entry and exit. Shots to upper arm or thigh could cause yaw into your torso, hand, head or foot.


With 5.56 "Consider the results of this shooting with Federal 55-grain HP:

When the autopsy was performed, the forensic pathologist was amazed at the degree of internal devastation caused by the .223 round. There was a two-inch void of tissue in the chest, with a literal "snowstorm" of bullet fragments and secondary bone fragments throughout the upper left chest area. The round struck the subject 11 inches below the top of his head and inflicted the following wounds: Penetrated the top of the left lung, left carotid and subclavian arteries. The collar bone and first rib were broken. Cavity measured 5x6 centimeters.

What is significant about this "instant one-shot stop" was that the round did not strike the subject at the most effective or optimum angle and did not involve any direct contact with the heart or central nervous system"

What is unknown about the DC sniper victims is weather fragmentation played a part in the sustained fatal injuries. We do know that in the Afghan/Soviet war that the 5.45 quickly gained a reputation for piling up Mujahideen casualties, and the the "Poison Bullet" nickname.
 

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variablebinary said:
We do know that in the Afghan/Soviet war that the 5.45 quickly gained a reputation for piling up Mujahideen casualties, and the the "Poison Bullet" nickname.
Because of their poor medical system mostly.
 
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