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Discussion Starter #1
I hope I am not being annoying, but I have another question. Please excuse me if this a dumb question:eek:. I have loaded a couple of dummy rounds of 45 ACP FMJ 230 gr .451 dia. The Speer manual calls for a overall length of 1.260 I have my die set to 1.259. When I chamber the round it pushed the bullet in a little making the over length 1.254. I am also applying the crimp with the lee crimp die. I thought that maybe it was due to the lack of powder, so I loaded a live round, and I got the same thing. Do I have a problem? I have never checked factory ball ammo after it has been chambered so I do not know if this normal. I have gone back through my directions for the die setup and I think I have everything correct. Thanks for the help
 

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Most rounds will set back if you chamber them repeatedly.

Some brass is more sensitive than others, though--it wouldn't happen to be R-P or REM-UMC would it? I find these extremely loose when it comes to neck tension, which is what holds the bullet in place in a straight-necked case like the .45.
 

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Ask away, ask away!

Sounds like your crimp is the culprit.

What is the dimension on your case mouth (crimp)?

I set to 0.469 per Bill Wilson's handbook. I keep a few rounds of factory ammo near the reloading bench so I can check factory dimensions. Strikes me that Winchester "White Box" comes in at COL 1.270 and crimp 0.470.

Regards
 

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DON`T FEEL DUMB OR AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS!!

I think you`re hitting the rifleing with your bullets. Try useing a magic marker on the bullets and see if they have marks from the rifleing showing when chambered. The OAL in the books sometimes only work with the bullet used / made by that manufacture. If you are getting signs of excessive OAL simply seat deeper until the marks on the colored bullet stop. The bullet shouldn`t have to be seated much deeper than your present OAL. This is one reason for starting low and working up a load. The pressure will rise a tad when seating the bullet deeper than shown in the book but it should be OK if the change isn`t excessive. Get the round to chamber reliably and settle on your OAL then raise the charge until you reach the velocity level you want. It looks like your gun will want that bullet seated to a depth of around 1.250 - abit deeper for good measure- and that`s the range I`d try if you are touching the lands........
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I did have UMC brass, so I just tried some Winchester white box I had and it solved the problem. My crimp is at .470. I also tried the marker and at 1.259 there are no rifling marks. Should I not use the UMC brass? Thanks for the support:D
 

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If there are no marks from the lands your brass must not be holding the bullet tight enough. Brass varies in thickness and the lot you have may be on the thin side. Not a bad deal but you will have to crimp to a tighter diameter than with thicker stuff.

I`d try as the other posters suggested and crimp a bit more and see if that helps. Don`t over crimp, this can cause the bullet to be loose. The crimp doesn`t hold the bullet as much as the case wall it`s self. Over crimping can cause the case to expand behind the crimp, lightening the tension on the bullet.

Also don`t repetedly run your ammo through the gun, letting the slide slam it from the mag to the chamber. It will get banged and the bullet most likely will seat deeper from it. You can test your ammo for fit by removing the barrel and chambering your ammo by hand. Let it drop in the chamber and see if it falls all the way in. The rim should be at or just below the hood on the barrel with ammo that chambers right. If you can push it deeper, or it hangs up and needs a light touch, it needs adjusting in some respect.
 

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I did have UMC brass, so I just tried some Winchester white box I had and it solved the problem. My crimp is at .470. I also tried the marker and at 1.259 there are no rifling marks. Should I not use the UMC brass? Thanks for the support
The R-P or UMC brass which is the same mfg. does not grip the bullet very tight when you reload them as they have thinner case walls than other brass. I would batch them (Remington) together and load them at the same time-----check the bullet grip by the case this way..... Take a loaded round and push the bullet into bench top or other hard object----push very hard!! If the bullet moves at all back into the case and you have a good crimp on it---- the brass really isn't all the good to use. If it is only moving a few thousands...it is still good to shoot----HOWEVER if the bullet pushes back into the case easy...Pitch the whole lot of brass.

I just trashed 500 pieces of NICKEL plated R-P 10m once fired brass....... This stuff would not hold a good FMJ bullet at all no matter what the crimp.........
 

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I crimp to .467 (.468 max.) and get good bullet retention while still keeping a good headspace ledge on the brass.
 

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I also chuck out all of my R-P brass; the nickel is particularly bad but even the brass-brass is sloppy. This is something that is very difficult to detect while reloading on a progressive press, btw. I reloaded something like 10,000 rounds on a single-stage RCBS Jr before getting my 550 and could pick out any R-P (and REM-UMC) that was mixed in because there was so little resistance during the expanding and seating stages. It was easy to feel the difference. For anyone that doesn't believe it, try it on a single-stage!

I find WCC is one of the most consistently good commercial brands. Whether it's from the 1950's or present day, that brass is always good and lasts until the headstamps are completely gone. Federal, while good, varies in design and quality over batches--I think they must buy the brass from third parties.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the help. I think I am going to chuck the UMC brass, which is a shame because I have so much of it. I went and shot my first loads today and the loads in the Winchester brass did fine, but my UMC keyholed every shot. The Winchester specs were OAL 1.260 crimp .468-.470. The UMC OAL was 1.258-1.260 before chambering, and I tried several crimps in the range of .466-.469. All of the UMC loads keyholed on me. I was shooting 230 FMJ with 5.6 grs of win 231. So could the keyhole being from underpowered since this was the minimum powder load? I thought keyhole affect came from to tight of crimp, but even crimped at .466 the round moves back .002 in the UMC when chambered. I cannot get a dummy round to budge in either case by hand.
 

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Do you have enough Remington brass to be worth the $20 for an undersize carbide sizing die? EGW sells them, made by Lee and probably available direct.

And check the diameter of your expander plug (Dillon "powder funnel".) It should be several thousandths smaller than the bullets.

Failing that, use the Remington - UMC brass for cast bullets. They run about a thousandth larger and are not as slick as jacketed. I have had no problems with cast bullets setting back in the case, but I have gone round and round with jacketed and have given up on plated.

With the EGW die I am able to use Federal (thick and hard) brass for 185 gr JHPs and about anything for 230 FMJ. When in doubt, as for major match low-light ammo or for serious self defense practice, I cannelure the brass at the base of the bullet. That holds them, by gum.
 

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ccw007, don't trash the R-P brass.

I experienced the same problem with R-P brass. Tried running the Lee Factory Crimp die all the way down for a very tight crimp, and it did not help the situation.

I ordered a Lee Undersize carbide resizing die directly from Lee, and the problem with R-P brass was solved.

Use as little neck expansion as possible.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for the tip on the undersize die I will look at picking one up.
 

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Another thing you can try on the RP brass is simply seat the bullet shorter.

I use RP brass a lot, I have a big bag of it. BUT, not for FMJ, I use it for lead, usually 230 LRN.

The Wilson Combat recommendation is Catridge Over All Length of 1.250".

I've used this length with 230 FMJ, 230 LRN, 200 LSWC, 185 LSWC, and never had a problem with any of it.

I crimp down to .468 with lead, but you really can't do that with FMJ. Probably .470 is about as tight as you can go.
 

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If math insn't an opinion...

... please explain this to me! .452 (bullet dia.) + .011 + .011 (case thickness x 2) = .475. I've done a search on this forum, founding that not all, but most members crimps 45 ACP to .469-.470 or even less. I use the Lee Factory Crimp die and I'm not able (perhaps I don't use it correctly) to get a crimp diameter less than .4725-.473, measured with an electronic caliper and a micrometer. Ammo seems fine and even if I press hard bullets against a table they stays well in place. I use Fiocchi, CBC and FMS (hungarian made) brass, with thickness at mouth from .011 to .012. It seems to me that to obtain .469 or less I have to squeeze a lot the bullet, but as most members crimps even to .465, obviously I'm wrong in something :confused: . I'm quite puzzled!
Many thanks for the explanations you'll be so glad to give me, friends. MAXM
 

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I can crimp at .468-.471 and I do not have setback after chambering a round several times. Case tension, not crimp, has more effect on bullet setback IMHO.

Size the casing and bell only a VERY small amount (the bullet should just be able to sit on the case by itself). An undersize sizing die will solve the problem if setback continues (RCBS dies seem to run on the tight side). When a case is undersized slightly, the casing will look somewhat hourglass shaped when a bullet is seated. This shape helps prevent setback without overcrimping.
 

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What retards the bullet from going into the case as you chamber is not so much the crimp, as the sizing.

Try the following. Size a case. Take a bullet and balance it base down on the case. The bullet should tip, and not balance. Bell (expand) the case mouth slightly, you should barely be able to see the flair of the case mouth. You should now be able to balance the bullet on the case mouth. Seat the bullet. Crimp the bullet. Try to push the bullet into the case by placing it on a flat surface and push. It should not go in. This is the proper setting. Next use the barrel of your gun as a guage. Remove the barrel from the gun, drop the cartridge into the chamber of the barrel. It should fall of its own weight into the chamber, so that the base of the case is even with the barrel hood extension. If the case doesn't chamber, you probably have too much or too little crimp and the die needs adjusting. I am assuming your cartridge length over all is not too long.

If nothing works, then try switching cases, or finally a new sizing die.
 

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Condo45 said:

I just trashed 500 pieces of NICKEL plated R-P 10m once fired brass....... This stuff would not hold a good FMJ bullet at all no matter what the crimp.........
Dang! Dude...... Just by a undersized sizing die! Geez don't toss brass out......:eek:
 

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Hehe.... You know you're a hard core "Brass Monkey" when watching someone lose 500 peices of .45 brass makes a bunch of us cringe.

We .45 guys are always the ones combing the range and knocking over old ladies and small children for decent brass.
 
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