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Discussion Starter #1
Or Cracker Jack if you prefer. We've all heard stories from friends about qualifying on a 1911A1 in the army. They say you shake that gun and the barrel rattles around like a box of tic tacs, and yet these people still qualify expert. These were Colts however, and I've heard great things about their internal parts (some of which were obviously replaced at some point). Anyway, I was wondering, can this be done with an SA? I've heard about this so called MIM being of lesser quality, and I didn't know which parts were and were not, and how SA long term durability stacks up to Colt. Specifically the WWII model.
 

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When I was in the Army, qualifying expert and shooting a pistol competition are two different things. I qualified expert with the M16, but I was shooting Silhouettes up to 300m. All I had to do was knock down the silhouette. Sometimes the bullet would land right in front of the silhouette, and the dirt flying up would knock it over. Therefore, there may be a big difference in qualifying vs accuracy of the weapon. Although, I can't remember how the M1911 qualification was executed.

Another interesting point I heard this evening on "Mail Call". When the military changed from the M14 to the M16, they knew the M16 was not as accurate as the M14 and it did not have the knock down power (in the 1960's). They also stated that the military stopped training infrantrymen as riflemen, so they did not need the accuracy. In WWII an average of 25,000 rounds were fired to kill one enemy soldier. In Vietnam, an average of 200K-400k rounds were fired to kill one enemy soldier.

My point is that the military does not put as much emphasis on accuracy as they do unit tactics, so qualification may not be a good measure to rate a weapon.
 

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Revolver Ocelot said:
Or Cracker Jack if you prefer. We've all heard stories from friends about qualifying on a 1911A1 in the army. They say you shake that gun and the barrel rattles around like a box of tic tacs, and yet these people still qualify expert. These were Colts however, and I've heard great things about their internal parts (some of which were obviously replaced at some point). Anyway, I was wondering, can this be done with an SA? I've heard about this so called MIM being of lesser quality, and I didn't know which parts were and were not, and how SA long term durability stacks up to Colt. Specifically the WWII model.
I intentionally tried shaking my Springfield. I heard no noise
whatsoever. The tolerances are quite tight.

I believe that a Springfield is as good as a Colt in every respect
while being cheaper than a Colt.

I have replaced the goofy ILS main-spring housing however and
plan to replace the goofy two-piece full-length guide rod with
a one-piece full-length guide rod.

Having said all that, there is really no comparison between my
Springfield and my Valtro. The Valtro is as accurate and as
reliable as any handgun ever made.

thanks

Jae
 

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n4ziq said:
In WWII an average of 25,000 rounds were fired to kill one enemy soldier. In Vietnam, an average of 200K-400k rounds were fired to kill one enemy soldier.
Im a little suspicious of that number. I wonder if it includes infantry only or includes things like Spectre gunships flying in circles hosing down suspected enemy positions with thousands of rounds a second.
 

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Mus said:
Im a little suspicious of that number. I wonder if it includes infantry only or includes things like Spectre gunships flying in circles hosing down suspected enemy positions with thousands of rounds a second.


Good point, but I did some thinking. The difference between 25K and 250k is 10x; therefore, the average soldier fired 10 more rounds per person which sounds reasonable from that standpoint. I would hope the government measured the number of .223 expended, that way you know it was from a soldier and not a gunship. Then again, I am always curious of how they came up with those numbers...

Joe
 

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Mus said:
Im a little suspicious of that number. I wonder if it includes infantry only or includes things like Spectre gunships flying in circles hosing down suspected enemy positions with thousands of rounds a second.
Being an ex-squid, I don't know first hand, but a few old grunts have told me that they would dump their unused ammo as soon as it started to tarnish. A lot more got dumped than fired.
 

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During my 9.5 years as an 11B I was initially issued a .45 as my standard sidearm (later transitioned to the 9mm M9). I had 4 different weapons issued to me to include 3 Colts and one old Remington Rand. I worked with the unit armorer on several occasions to check all our rack weapons and crew served weapons for maintenance. The .45s all rattled! However, we mainly checked the barrel to bushing fit and the lockup at the breech. All were tight. The next higher maintenance armorer used multiple techniques to ensure that the barrel lockup was always tight. As a range safety officer we often had the time and ammunition to verify the accuracy of all our 45s as well as other weapons and I found that at 13 meters they would all hold a 5" group which is well with in the mission requirements of the weapon. Just as a side note that old Remington would hold 1.5" from a rest and I swear someone had used it as a hammer during its life in the army. I wish I had a picture to post of that old weapon. My 1st Sgt used it in several pistol competitions and it claimed him two different 1st place finishes! An additional side note the individual armorer that handled our rack weapon maintenance also handled the maintenance on both my M-21 and later M-24....he never had an empty glass at the NCO club!
 

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Re: Re: Springfield Armory and the Tic-Tac Phenomenon

Saab1911 said:
I believe that a Springfield is as good as a Colt in every respect
while being cheaper than a Colt.
You mean "less expensive" right? :)
 

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n4ziq said:
Good point, but I did some thinking. The difference between 25K and 250k is 10x; therefore, the average soldier fired 10 more rounds per person which sounds reasonable from that standpoint. I would hope the government measured the number of .223 expended, that way you know it was from a soldier and not a gunship. Then again, I am always curious of how they came up with those numbers...
Well that would really throw off the numbers in Vietnam because of the M60 using 7.62x51.

I guess now that I think about it it might not be that far off. We probably do alot more sitting back and hosing down areas since we have much larger magazine capacities and everyone in a squad has a select fire weapon. Whats the basic infantry load now? 300 rounds and most people carry more? It was 160 in WWII right? I wonder how much of those numbers are the squad level light machineguns. M60s are worlds above a BAR in terms of establishing a base of fire and sustaining it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I guess my intial questions were a bit misunderstood, so I'll restate them.

1. How are sprinfields intnals done, MIM, cast, etc.

2. Are the internals as good as colts, I hear colt is the best in this aspect, but I don't really know.

3. Out of curiosity, what rattles, if the bushing locks up right, and the breech does too, what's so loose?

4. What do you guys think the service life (MRBF) of an SA Mil Spec is?
 

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OCelot, the slide fit is generally loose on a true GI issue 1911. If the SA is an authentic copy this would be the source of the rattle.
 

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Ocelot,

Just wondering... do you get the rattle with and w/o a mag in the gun? Also loaded mag/unloaded mag? The only rattle I ever noticed in my Mil-Spec, is when I have an empty factory mag in it. Loaded, the same mag doesn't rattle :confused: The CMC Shooting Star mag I have doesn't rattle loaded or empty. Strange but true.
 

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My milspec rattles just a little bit. Theres just a bit of slop between the frame and slide up near the dustcover.
 
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