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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How good is the .223 for stopping attackers at close range the two legged types? I would think a close range a good .45 hp would be better can that small narrow slug do alot of damage or is it built to be shot at long distances?
 

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Originally posted by Greg1911:
How good is the .223 for stopping attackers at close range the two legged types? I would think a close range a good .45 hp would be better can that small narrow slug do alot of damage or is it built to be shot at long distances?
Not a single caliber - pistol, rifle, or shotgun (gauge) - is a guaranteed manstopper. For any caliber you care to mention, someone can tell a horror story about how some scumwad took five hits from a .50 Browning and kept coming.

However, the .223 is far superior to the .45 in whatever sort of stopping power you wish to measure. At the relatively low velocities of pistol calibers, the only wound channel that really counts is the permanent hole that the bullet drills through the body. At rifle velocities (3000 fps or so) that little .223 bullet stirs up quite a fuss, and blows comparatively HUGE holes through tissues, organs, etc, particularly if/when the bullet yaws inside the body or if you're using soft point ammo.

There is zero question that the .223 is the better caliber to take to a gunfight, given the choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
yeah 3000 fps is quick its just the size of the slug doesn't look like much .223 hollow points would probably be a good idea for defense also.
 

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Originally posted by Greg1911:
yeah 3000 fps is quick its just the size of the slug doesn't look like much .223 hollow points would probably be a good idea for defense also.
Having shot stuff with both (but no people) I would not characterize the .223 as vastly superior to the .45...in fact in deer it has proven inferior in the cases I have seen (but that is explainable and does not make it a bad defensive round). I must hasten to point out that a few or even a few dozen cases does not a "study" make.

It truly depends on the bullet, the location of the hit and the physical/mental state of the subject.

Even the 55gr. FMJ bullet will tumble in 5 or 6" and expand or fragment leaving a large wound about 75% of the time (according to Dr. Fackler)... unless the twist of the barrel is so fast that it makes the bullet too stable. On the other hand it has been known to tumble and come back out the same side it went in.

On the whole, I regard it as a good defensive round, somewhat superior to ball in a .45 in most cases (but not all) but less predictable...of course that is why we shoot more than once


Of course that is just one perspective. Others have probably had different experiences.

Best regards,
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Dear Greg,

At close range a shotgun with one ounce or larger slugs will put them both to shame. Just the impact of one or two of these things should knock your attacker down, body armor or not. I have been down range 25 to 30 yards (sitting with my back against a protective fence) of a 3 1/4 dram (1250 fps.) load of 7 1/2" shot. The impact shoved me hard and and pushed me forward.

My point is get the proper tool for the job. At close range the best ones are big bullets from a long arm like the 12 gauge slugs, .444 Marlin, .45/70, etc... Stay safe

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"I knew a man that I did not care for. And then one day this man payed me a call. We sat and talked about things on our mind. Now this man he is a friend of mine" Friend and Lover "Reach Out in the Darkness"
 

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How about a .223 vs. a .308? I don't know much about either one except most of the .223 selection in California is bye-bye (except the Mini-14, which Greg seems to be showing an interest in). Some people tell me the .223 is underpowered compared to the .308 and won't go through brush, some tell me the .223 tumbles while the .308 goes straight so the .223 actually does more tissue damage. What's the word?

Greg, where do you live, I think Turner's has Mini-14s on sale this week. Personally I'm looking to get an M1A Scout (.308) whenever they get back in stock.
 

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I don't know the ballistic differences as far as stopping power/performance, but I'm gonna buy myself a Springfield M1A Super Match for Xmas....I like a 165-gr. or so bullet much better than the lighter zingers in the .223. F=MA and all that...

Incidentally, I own a mini-14 (used exclusively for plinking) and I love it. Great bang for the buck, it's about 18 years old now, and still shoots 4" groups at 100 yds., which is all I'd expect from it under the best of circumstances.

Another small size/big bang weapon to consider if you're stuck in Kalifornia is the HK SL-7 series. It's the HK 91 action on a wooden sport stock, carbine length. Oh, it's available in .223 or .308.

I do remember reading somewhere, I don't know if it was Evan Marshall's work or elsewhere, that in US police application, both the .223 and the .308 were the only two calibers where every single reported use resulted in a 1-shot stop. Every. Time.

/TCP

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Measure Twice....Cut Once
 

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This may be a silly reply, and if it is disregard it.

But...It seems to me that "scaring the hell" out of a two legged is worth something.

For example, whenever I go to the range, it takes me a minute ot two to "adjust" to the gun fire.
The point is , it wouldn't matter whether someone was shooting at me w/ a 9 or a .45, either way I'm probably going to blitz out and run!!! (or trip and fall


It might make more difference on an animal than a human, i.e. needing to make a greater "impression" on an animal.
But, everytime I have been shot/attacked during simulations w/ 9mm simunitions, even the paultry effect of that has been confusing and stunning.

If you get shot in the hands (which seems to happen a lot) then you realize "Gee, I would be in a whole world of hurt right now if this was real"

Too, if someone shoots you, then zip!, they are gone. It is very confusing. You stand there feeling kinda "out of place". I'm trying to make a point about tactics. Meaning, if someone pops out and hits you 3 or 4 times w/ a .22LR, then zip! they are gone! The effect is magnified.
It's very confusing. You would have to be in an altered state of consciousness on drugs, sheer meaness, or perhaps have a lot of training to overcome this and continue fighting in a cogent fashion, I believe.

Just my observations. I could be wrong.
All things being equal though. Why not hit as hard as you can , i.e. .45, .308, 12ga. ?
(By the way, I am a total sissy 9mm, .223, 20ga.
)

[This message has been edited by elsworth (edited 11-29-2001).]
 

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Allow me to clear up the .308 vs. .223 question.

A friend of mine with many years experience shooting people with both calibers says that beyond 125 yards, the .308 wins hands down. But inside 125 yards, where the vast majority of combat occurs, he has had the .308 fail to put down combatants about as often as the .223, and since the .233 is handier, he prefers it for general combat operations.

I mentioned that to another friend, who has less extensive experience (four combat tours in special operations), and he entirely disagreed. He said the .223 fails a lot more often at all ranges, and he will accept nothing less than a .308 for combat duty.

Questions?
 

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elsworth said:


..SNIP...Too, if someone shoots you, then zip!, they are gone. It is very confusing. You stand there feeling kinda "out of place". I'm trying to make a point about tactics. Meaning, if someone pops out and hits you 3 or 4 times w/ a .22LR, then zip! they are gone! The effect is magnified.
It's very confusing. You would have to be in an altered state of consciousness on drugs, sheer meaness, or perhaps have a lot of training to overcome this and continue fighting in a cogent fashion, I believe.

If somone shoots you 3 or 4 times with a .22 LR and is aiming for a critical area of the body its bound to be alot more than "very confusing." I personally would be very afraid of somone with say a Ruger MkII 6" bull barrel and good shooting skills. I dont think the .22 LR is a wimpy bullet at all even tho it is very small. Hunting/Plinking experience leads me to believe that it has more penetration then the average person thinks.
 

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I consider the .223 an excellent close range weapon. My dept uses it for entries now. I used the HK 53 (223) on a suspect some years back and the round (Rem 60 grn JHP) and weapon worked very well. I did use the HK on full auto and he was only 3ft from me. None of the rounds exited the body cavity.
 

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Oddjob...
Does your dept use hearing protection at all when making entries using 223 chambered firearms?.. Just curious.
 

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No protection at all..........Its not like we expect a firefight at the time..Plus the kevlar helmets we wear won't accomodate anything than ear plugs.......
 

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Elsworth:

Your average citizen would react pretty much the same as you do. Problem is, your average citizen is not the kind of person who breaks into your home with hostile intent. Those types of far-below-average citizen often "get their courage up" through the use of drugs, and they are quite a different animal. I once read a report about some dirtbag strung up on PCP in LA whom about 6 policemen were trying to take down. He leapt onto the hood of a police car, put his fist through the windshield to get at the officer inside who was calling for backup, missed, then pulled his fist out and put it through a second time, grabbed the officer, and was throttling him before another officer from behind put some sort of choke old on the perp and cut off the blood flow to his brain. The guy finally passed out. Supposedly, he broke most of the bones in his fist the first time he smashed it through the windshield. My martial arts instructor at that time told me that against such guys, your best bet is to take out their knees so they can't chase you as you run away, because you're not likely to take them out before they take you out. Nowadays, the dirtbags often wear bulletproof vests.

The best first line of defense is a German Shepherd or some such type of dog. 24/7/365, plus you can walk it around the neighborhood and let folks know you're protected, something frowned upon if you do that with your firearms. A good backup (because the dog can't do everything), of course, is a firearm.

Which leads me to wonder why all the interest in .223 and .308 in terms of home defense. I know of only long arm applications for those rounds, and if I'm going to use a long arm it's going to be a shotgun--plenty o'power and difficult to miss. However, a long arm can be difficult to navigate through your home, thus the need for a pistol.

Are there .223 or .308 pistols out there?

__________________________________________

In the immortal words of Harpo Marx: " ."
 

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Whyte,

Many of us do not live in California and have yards and many even acreage where it may be possible in a few imaginable circumstances to require taking a shot beyond the range of a good pattern of buckshot. I wouldnt feel comfortable for example shooting it out with someone 50+ yards away with my bennelli. Id want my rifle.... now that I think of it i wont be comfortable in any kind of gunfight, but if I had a rifle my chances of staying alive and uncomfortable are greater :D


PS: My teacher taught me to gouge their eyes out so they dont know where you ran :p
 

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I'm going to have to echo the "right tool for the right job" mantra here. The ultimate home defense gun, bar none, is the shotgun. Inside of 20 yards, you aren't going to match the knockdown power, lethality, "oh crap" factor, or controllability of a two handed 12 or 20 g pump gun with a ghost ring and flashlight grip. Outside of 20 yards and you don't have much of a self defense case.

The .308 is very nice for popping someone from 3 blocks away, but do you really want that much lead with that much snot behind it going through walls in your house? Just the possibility of collateral damage (let alone the possible liability) is enough for me to disqualify it entirely as a home defense gun.

The .223 is pretty nice in this regard. It does relatively little collateral damage, is very controllable, and offers more than adequate lethality. I am a particular fan of the M4, but can see plenty of other possibilities as well.

I am a bit surprised no one has mentioned the AK considering both the fact that it is inexpensive AND an outstanding home defense gun. It has the ballistic properties of a 30-30 and can be had in a number of very usable CQB configurations.
 

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Hmmm... dev_null ponders whether he can justify buying another Mini-14 right now.

("Another" because like a fool I sold the one I had: folding stock, pistol grip, flash suppressor, 30-rnd mag... :( )
 

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Well, if you can't get an AR in Kali, a mini14 may be your only option. I can't stand them myself. The ones I've fired were so inaccurate we basically needed to sight them in with targets the size of my kitchen table at 100 yards. The tightest group any of us shot that day with any of the three 14's at 100 was just about 8". Our AR's were shooting less than half of that consistantly.
 

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I hardly need 100-yd accuracy in a home defensive weapon... OTOH, if it's worth buying, it ought to be reasonable quality, so I can see your point.

Actually, here in the 'burbs a shotgun makes more sense; however, the H&R single-shot I've currently got wouldn't be my first choice for that task. I'm thinking more like an M-500 or an 870.

-0-
 
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