[TheGriz]

I'm stumped. I recently picked up a SA Loaded to fiddle with (my other 1911's are Kimbers & series 70's) and the trigger group is resisting my best efforts. I use a Power Custom jig and have always had great results with the usual steps:

1) Square hammer hooks, trim to .020" & polish
2) Touch up sear primary surface at stock angle (20 clicks on the jig) & polish
3) Cut secondary relief angle to about 40-50% of total original sear surface & polish
4) Polish all contact surfaces on disconnector

I've done all of this (twice) and still cannot get the pull below about 5.75# even after tweaking the sera spring and lopping a couple turns of of the mainspring. I substituted the springs from another gun with a 3.5# pull with the same results. The only thing I have not polished yet is the disconnector tunnel.

In looking at the sear, it appears to be cast and not terribly square. I'm thinking that the casting was not true (or not finish machined) and that things are not mating squarely in the jig. I have looked at the hammer-sear mating on test pins with Dykem, and am coming to the conclusion that the sear (and possibly hammer) are not true & square, and are not mating properly. However, that would seem to result in less engagement surface which would not seem to account for the weight increase I'm seeing. There is no apparent creep (hard to tell at 6# though).

Any suggestions? I've ordered Nowlin EDM hammer & sear to try. I've done several 1911 triggers and never run into one this stubborn.

Thanks

 

[bjg-1911]

Griz,
...try measuring the length of the sear nose
.405" would be ideal, and .396" would be minimum. With the sear pin in place ideal measurement from outside of pin to sear nose would be.460." The shorter the sear nose measurement the higher the pull will be since you have to push the hammer back against the mainspring before it can release!
My statement is predicated on the presumption that the hammer and sear pin holes are in the proper place! Also, you can mark the frame and hammer(with the hammer cocked)and pull the trigger slowly..you will see the hammer move slightly back before it releases or "breaks"! It has been my experience that the factories have been leaving the sear noses at minimum lengths! why?, probably to avoid liabilities since overly captive sear noses are less of a liability for AD's or ND's. This is just a supposition on my part.
Barry

 

[bjg-1911]

Griz...
BTW, the Nowlin parts will be within the specs I quoted you

!
Later-BJG

 

[TheGriz]

Thanks for the tip. I'm tired of tearing this thing down for one day, but I did examine the hammer closely under magnification while I pulled the trigger - no rearward movement. I'll measure the sear next time I take it down.

Based on my limited experience with SA, I'll stick to Kimbers or vintage Colts. I'm not impressed with the parts quality or fit of the barrel (lack of fit would be more like it).

 

[blindhogg]

Griz
Ensure your sear is engaging both hammer hooks not just one. Coat hammer hooks with black marker then dry fire several times and see.
Chris from Va

 

[rex]

Griz
Is the searspring cocking to the left and rubbing the frame?I had this happen before and drove me nuts.Just leave out the GS and you'll see it,along with the rub marks on the spring and frame.Something is binding and will take some carefull looking to find.Is the DIS pivoting freely in the hole?Also,it sounded like you snipped coils on the mainspring-shame on you

Replace it if you did.Like Blindhogg said,make sure both hooks are mating.If only one is,it will add to the pull weight.Springfields aren't the easiest to play with,and I think they're a downright pain in the a$$.Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Dave Sample]

Wecome to the club. Trigger jobs are from two hours to two days. You may be fighting badly located holes for the sear and hammer pins. Have the sear trued up with a mill @ 90o and leave the hooks at .0020. Then with one part right, you should be able to balance the sear to the hammer hooks. SA's are made in Brazil. They are usually bought by people who are not serious shooters. Eagles Law: Sows Ears stay Sows Ears

 

[TheGriz]

I snipped coils from the mainspring because the new SA's use a different (shorter) spring as part of the keylock built into the mainspring housing. There are no other springs available. I didn't have the parts available to neuter the "feature" and convert to a traditional MS housing.

As far as serious shooters not buying SA - I got a good deal and was curious to try one. I'll certainly stick to Kimber & vintage Colt in the future.

 

[Slo cat]

Dave,
I'm sure you meant to leave the hooks at twenty thousands (.020), not two thousands (.0020)

 

[Joe D]

Sounds like you have one or more of the engagement angles wrong. I was able to get a sub 2lb. trigger in my 9mm SA without too much effort. The first thing I did was chuck that locking MS housing and the funky FP along with the heavy FP spring.

 

[Jack Weigand]

Give 4 clicks from the bottom a try, 20 will not get the pull you desire. I hope this helps.
God Bless
Jack Weigand

 

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Dave Sample:
SA's are made in Brazil. They are usually bought by people who are not serious shooters. Eagles Law: Sows Ears stay Sows Ears

So Dave, you saying that the Vickers guns aren't owned by serious shooters? <..poke, poke.>

 

[PK]

I'm also guessing Rob Leatham is no longer a serious shooter?

 

[RickB]

Robbie has to buy his guns?

 

[George Smith]

Good post as usual, except for dave, as usual

The Springfield with the garage door springs and ti firing pins so far have been the new mim hammer and sear.

Bruce Piatt has an old colt that the sear pin is really off, as Jack knows, so no sure thing there.

Like Chris said, make sure you have contact on both sides of the sear. If not you will have to favor one side wile your stoning.

I use a square to set up my sear jig, not just the clicks. If you take a stone across the fixture and use the tip of the sear for a reference point, look for the square to run twards the front third of the sear pin, not quite the center.

Will wait to hear how you do with the better quality parts.

geo ><>

 

[TheGriz]

Well, as a result of some suggestions made by Barry, I made some measurements on the sear. The length of the nose is short by a mile - .388" This is at least part, if not all, of my problem. It's crap like this that gives MIM a bad name. The Kimber parts are much better.

I made an attempt to verify the hammer & sear hole locations. It appears they are correct per Kuhnhausen within my ability to measure them with just calipers.

One other puzzle - Jack (who I am sure knows more about 1911's than I ever will) said I would not get to 3.5-4# with standard primary sear angles. I have 2 different Kimbers which I touched up the sears on (to eleminate a littel creep) using the very same jig settings, and one is 3.25#, the other just under 4#. Neither have ridiculous spring tensions, the hammers don't follow through, etc. What am I missing?

 

[Dave Sample]

I am a lousy typist, and am even worse at spelling.Rob shoots what the people that pay him tell him to shoot.Sorry about the one too many 0's. I think Rob could pick up any 1911 and kick everyones butt.SA's are inexpensive guns and to think you get something for nothing is silly. I seem to be in the minority here on that thought.Next thing I'll be hearing is that Thompsons are the guns to buy. Cheap guys buy cheap guns. I just had a SA here with cracks on each side of the frame in front of the slide stop hole. I seem to be the one who is not allowed to have any opinions based on my experience. I am blessed in that I didn't build crap.I didn't have to.

 

[Jack Weigand]

TheGriz, puzzle?
No puzzle, usually it is in the sear spring setting. I actually set each leaf with a trigger pull guage. I set the rebound, then the sear and rebound together bending the spring until I get the weight I want. I did a Tech article for Brownells a while back, it is on there web I am not sure just where. Reading that might give you an AH HA moment, LOL! At least you are having fun with this, aren't you? By the wat you could give Robbie any old piece of crap gun and we still could not beat him, LOL!
God Bless
Jack Weigand

 

[Dr. Nick]

Originally posted by Dave Sample:
SA's are inexpensive guns and to think you get something for nothing is silly. I seem to be in the minority here on that thought....Cheap guys buy cheap guns....

Dave, SA's are only inexpensive compared to other 1911's. The way you put it they might as well be Ravens.

I also believe that you get what you pay for MOST OF THE TIME but the fact is, it's not always the case. Sometimes you get better, sometimes you get worse.

Finally, I doubt Larry Vickers would specifically spec a base gun he thought was subpar for his customs. I'm sure your experiences bear out your opinions as do everyone else's.

 

[bjg-1911]

Hey there guys,
I think Griz will be able to correct his problem with his new parts and the good suggestions that he has received in this thread. However, there is one thing that is a given ..."you can't overcome bad geometry or out of spec parts with stoning and polishing," just like you can't overcome really bad position for your next shot on a pool table with "English" and expect to win the game!

Barry