1911Forum banner
61 - 80 of 93 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
Perhaps I missed it, but how many bullets, or blanks were in the gun after it was fired? Did it have 1 empty and 5 live rounds? It matters.
IDK. Reports I recall indicated live ammunition removed from the revolver after the shooting. But reports written by semi-literate, firearm-ignorant and generally imprecise reporters. May have referred to the known spent casing; to blanks .... even dummies. A "news" invention: live dummies; these examples possibly for use in fully semi-automatic revolvers*. The CSI search-warrant affidavit may have had a trust-worthy number. It is linked in one of the earlier threads. "news" reports sometimes characterized that affidavit as the director's testimony(!?!)*.


*- NOTE TO SELF: bitter much over extremely poor quality reporterage?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
Perhaps I missed it, but how many bullets, or blanks were in the gun after it was fired? Did it have 1 empty and 5 live rounds? It matters.
oh! A partial answer, provided by an untrusted source ( a reporter ) -;*, was that AB cocked the hammer and pressed the trigger twice. The 2nd time it fired. If true, no more than five live rounds. And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it.


*- One of my uncles was a reporter ... loved that man ... it greatly saddens me to see the estate to which the press has fallen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ranger4

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #63 · (Edited)
Just hypothetical—

Trying, for just a moment, to place one’s self in the shoes of the amourer, if we found the gun filled with live rounds, and we knew that we couldn’t possibly have done that ourselves, wouldn’t we want to immediately drop that gun and have it immediately secured?

But none of us was the 24-year old armourer, so this is only hypothetical.

Im guessing, but it’s only a guess, that there was the empty casing and either none or just one other live round in that gun. Otherwise, I’d think the armour’s reaction upon looking at the gun and her subsequent statements to LEO would have been different. She has stated, through her attorney, that someone else must have inserted that one live round into the gun.

Again, nothing more than a guess. If she was on drugs, almost anything is possible.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
Just hypothetical—

Trying, for just a moment, to place one’s self in the shoes of the amourer, if we found the gun filled with live rounds, and we knew that we couldn’t possibly have done that ourselves, wouldn’t we want to immediately drop that gun and have it immediately secured?

But none of us was the 24-year old armourer, so this is only hypothetical.

Im guessing, but it’s only a guess, that there was the empty casing and either none or just one other live round in that gun. Otherwise, I’d think the armour’s reaction upon looking at the gun and her subsequent statements to LEO would have been different. She has stated, through her attorney, that someone else must have inserted that one live round into the gun.

Again, nothing more than a guess.
Investigators were reported to say that they knew who had loaded that pistol. The context was such as to bring to mind the prop department ... at the time for all I knew that was Miss Thell-Guitieres(sp?). Since have read that she had a mentor and / or assistant(!?!). On reading that one of the three shot herself on the foot, I'm think she may also metaphorically shot herself in the foot by dropping the pistol and not completed clearing it.

Now when I stabbed myself with Mom's good scissors, pretty sure I closed them and replaced them on her sewing table*. But at that time I was in my late 50s and knew it to be in my own best interest if Mom never found her Fiskars out of place. Especially when my off hand was already too tender to use for supplication.


*- Didn't think to wipe them down to remove my fingerprints ... while bleeding quite profusely.
\ -;
 
  • Like
Reactions: chrysanthemum

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #65 ·
I'm really surprised that the gun was loaded with anything at all...blanks, dummy rounds, and of course real ammo.

But a number of reports have indeed referred to "loading the gun".
 
  • Like
Reactions: tgt_usa

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
I'm really surprised that the gun was loaded with anything at all...blanks, dummy rounds, and of course real ammo.

But a number of reports have indeed referred to "loading the gun".
Especially with a S.A. Colt's, make a cylinder machined with no chambers and the front looking like the noses of bullets. Done! The same pistol with a real cylinder could be used for scenes with blanks or live rounds. But easily seen as safe with such a cylinder installed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Mitchell’s lawsuit alleged that she suffered ...“serious physical trauma...”

Sounds substantive. I need a reminder what caliber that revolver was. Must've been something fierce if it caused physical trauma to a bystander who wasn't even shot with it.

If he wasn't asked to point and fire, he could and should be charged even if clearing the gun wasn't his responsibility. Small problem is how you trust a statement when it is so transparent in its intent to get some $$$$.
Hearing loss and psychological trauma unless she fell from fright or something.

Dunno.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #68 · (Edited)
^^^
In hindsight, we needed two separate threads (both fair for discussion):

— One discussing the “wimpiness“ of the plaintiff (for those primarily focused on that perspective) and the obvious corollary (for those seeing it in this light) that no such lawsuits should be filed against Alec Baldwin (as under this perspective, he caused no harm to any other crew members).

— And the other thread discussing the allegations made against the detailed described actions of Alec Baldwin (and other named defendants). Actions which resulted in an innocent, talented young woman being shot dead, with a precisely aimed center mass shot fired by Alec Baldwin.

IMHO, if no one complains via a plaintiff’s petition, Baldwin and likely everyone else will probably walk away completely free….NM authorities might even realize that if no one else complains, any doubts should be resolved in the direction of an accident.

IOW… Just a workplace accident, no different than a slip and fall. Ordinary workers comp…made still easier by the fact Ms. Hutchins is deceased and not in need of any further medical care. Recommend a study on safety, perhaps still more laws restricting use of firearms, as next step.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,781 Posts
IMHO, this will never be known with much certainty…because immediately after the shooting, the armourer grabbed the gun and removed whatever was in it. Anything in the gun after LEO arrived was either consciously left or replaced by the armourer.

So the armourer is the only person who really knows.

If known, just as you say, it obviously would matter…providing significant, compelling clues as to how/from what source the gun was loaded …and the possibility of one “different“ round being surreptitiously placed (by someone) in the next-to-fire chamber, as alleged by the armourer. (I’m not a revolver guy, so I hope “chamber” is acceptable terminology, at least understandable ).
Which if true... could bring charges of destroying evidence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #70 ·
Which if true... could bring charges of destroying evidence.
I think this is on the table, as tampering with evidence. Although Ms. Gutierrez could claim that she left everything she touched still on the trolley…just removed from the gun to “ensure no further risks”.

I’m guessing that Ms. Gutierrez has bigger worries than this specific potential charge. But if she’s charged for other criminal negligence, I’m sure that tampering with evidence will also be thrown in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Whoever loaded the prop gun with live ammo is the most culpable person in the sequence of causation. I suspect that someone decided to bring live ammo on the set and “plink”. They failed to completely unload the pistol after shooting. But I doubt if anyone will admit to loading live ammo. It is the simplest explanation. Second in line is the armorer. It’s her job. But I’m sure she had no idea that the gun was loaded with live ammo, and had probably checked it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #72 · (Edited)
^^^
With a wry smile….No elves bearing live ammo have yet been confirmed present on the set.

So someone indeed originally bought live ammo and loaded that round...and for sure she (or he) won’t raise a hand saying “it was me”. And no one adequately inspected the gun afterwards.

Seriously, I do understand your hypothesis; it’s as plausible, maybe more plausible, as any other.

In our previous threads, we’ve already discussed who we perceived as bearing the greatest negligence. I made some posts about Ms. Gutierrez, including links to her dancing in fishnet underwear talent videos.. Safe to say, when the dust settled in those other threads, Baldwin had the most votes for greatest culpability. For now, I’ll go along with that majority vote, but giving no pass to Ms. Gutierrez. (All while recognizing that my opinion won’t get me even a cup of coffee).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
oh! A partial answer, provided by an untrusted source ( a reporter ) -;*, was that AB cocked the hammer and pressed the trigger twice. The 2nd time it fired. If true, no more than five live rounds. And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it.


*- One of my uncles was a reporter ... loved that man ... it greatly saddens me to see the estate to which the press has fallen.
Your comment caught my attention when you said:

"And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it."

My take is there is no one on that set that would know not to place a loaded round under the hammer of the Peacermaker, Pretty much any gun guy would know that for the older model guns. Lots of the newer clones have the Ruger transfer bar, I think the Uberti Millienium type, or they have the little first notch that is supposed to hold the firing pin off the primer. Have no clue if the are actually drop safe but they do hold the firing pin off the primer.

Does anyone know the exact gun they were using?

.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,616 Posts
Discussion Starter · #74 ·
Your comment caught my attention when you said:

"And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it."

My take is there is no one on that set that would know not to place a loaded round under the hammer of the Peacermaker, Pretty much any gun guy would know that for the older model guns. Lots of the newer clones have the Ruger transfer bar, I think the Uberti Millienium type, or they have the little first notch that is supposed to hold the firing pin off the primer. Have no clue if the are actually drop safe but they do hold the firing pin off the primer.

Does anyone know the exact gun they were using?

.
From a quick Google search:


I‘m not a revolver guy, so that’s strictly from one of the links provided by Google Search.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,137 Posts
^^^
With a wry smile….No elves bearing live ammo have yet been confirmed present on the set.

So someone indeed originally bought live ammo and loaded that round...and for sure she (or he) won’t raise a hand saying “it was me”. And no one adequately inspected the gun afterwards.

Seriously, I do understand your hypothesis; it’s as plausible, maybe more plausible, as any other.

In our previous threads, we’ve already discussed who we perceived as bearing the greatest negligence. I made some posts about Ms. Gutierrez, including links to her dancing in fishnet underwear talent videos.. Safe to say, when the dust settled in those other threads, Baldwin had the most votes for greatest culpability. For now, I’ll go along with that majority vote, but giving no pass to Ms. Gutierrez. (All while recognizing that my opinion won’t get me even a cup of coffee).
You really mean that? Not even a cup of coffee? How can that be so?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26,137 Posts
Your comment caught my attention when you said:

"And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it."

My take is there is no one on that set that would know not to place a loaded round under the hammer of the Peacermaker, Pretty much any gun guy would know that for the older model guns. Lots of the newer clones have the Ruger transfer bar, I think the Uberti Millienium type, or they have the little first notch that is supposed to hold the firing pin off the primer. Have no clue if the are actually drop safe but they do hold the firing pin off the primer.

Does anyone know the exact gun they were using?

.
None of this really matters if you think about it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
Your comment caught my attention when you said:

"And with that pistol, many would never load the chamber under the hammer other than while at the line shooting it."

My take is there is no one on that set that would know not to place a loaded round under the hammer of the Peacermaker, Pretty much any gun guy would know that for the older model guns. Lots of the newer clones have the Ruger transfer bar, I think the Uberti Millienium type, or they have the little first notch that is supposed to hold the firing pin off the primer. Have no clue if the are actually drop safe but they do hold the firing pin off the primer.

Does anyone know the exact gun they were using?

.
Another [ very ] untrusted source wrote it was "... a vintage Colt pistol ..." (my emphasis), showing a photograph of what appeared to be a Colt's, "Dragoon" / "Army" / "Navy" model; at any rate a pre-1873 design: loading lever and no top-strap. Very untrusted source because a genuine 1848 - 1870s revolver seems unlikely to have been rented for a movie however exhorbitant the rental rates appear. And the photograph may have only been intended to show no scary features: high-capacity clips, shoulder-thing that goes up, pistol grip forward of the magazine, etc.

Thell's daughter, however unschooled in adding some buffer to safety practices in order to allow for human error*, has had plenty of opportunity to learn of 19th century firearms. And I don't load my replicas >5rds by tradition and to make it easier to count the number of rounds fired / remaining; regardless of these new-fangled safety features. ;- j All the time I spend in a LGS&R, I hear lots of customers discussing gun lore mixed in with data. Frankly that's probably how I started loading only 5rds in my S.A. revolvers; then noticed the convenience of counting by 5s.



*- A failing I myself exhibited at age 23 - she's barely older and grew up in a much softer epoch.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
From a quick Google search:


I‘m not a revolver guy, so that’s strictly from one of the links provided by Google Search.
ha! Glad I wrote "... very untrusted ..." .. just heard the Sherrif's dept. spokesman saying "... Pietta" ... still listening ... oh! and he's showing a S.A.A. oh good grief! it sounds as though the gun store owner doesn't know how to remove the cylinder!!! He didn't demonstrate that as a means of seeing at a glance that the cylinder is empty; or to visually inspect for blanks, dummies or spent cases vs live rounds. I have a revolver very like that one; the cylinder can be removed with the hammer down (safe-ish). Once the cylinder's out, it's at worst an awkward, small-but-heavy club. That's how I "palm check" it.

Ah ... or maybe they're trying to lighten the guilt by declaring how difficult it is to inspect this firearm for being clear. I'm becoming cynical.
} -;

Thanks for posting. I consider the sheriff reliable for this info; good to finally have it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
For now, I’ll go along with that majority vote, but giving no pass to Ms. Gutierrez. (All while recognizing that my opinion won’t get me even a cup of coffee).
You really mean that? Not even a cup of coffee? How can that be so?
Attend the NRA Annual Meeting this Spring, I'll buy you each a cup of coffee. Emmett Brown Center again, right? They've had good coffee there for previous NRA Annuals.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,040 Posts
None of this really matters if you think about it.
hmmm, 'Ranger4' has a thought, see #59 . Part of my motive for LMGTFYing ;- j is to read that thought.

Before reading #59 , I'd have said it doesn't matter: AB points a gun that he hasn't even bothered to inspect for being clear; points it at people; presses the trigger at least once; killing one; wounding another. To my own mind the big unknown is whether pointing was a bullying threat in response to being told "Again!" as has been claimed by one witness. A witness with no apparent understanding of how significant that fact[oid] might be.

Possible of course that I'm placing too much import to it. Even if a prosecutor and judge saw it the same as I, no telling that a jury would. General opinions of juries seem pretty low ... and given my one experience on a jury, cannot defend them very passionately. That jury only reached the correct verdict by the judge telling us what it was; 10 of the members didn't understand the evidence.
 
61 - 80 of 93 Posts
Top