The extractor pad and deflection

I copied and reposted this from an earlier post I made:

Deflection is not set by bending the extractor. Deflection comes from how the extractor fits into the tunnel via its locating pad. Deflection is the measurement of how far between the tensioning wall of the extractor and the distance to the opposite breech wall, and how that distance changes as the tensioning wall grips the case rim. If deflection is too little, you can file down the locating pad to allow the extractor end to move closer. Too much deflection and you have to either add material to the locating pad or cut down the tensioning wall of the extractor (Too much deflection means the case is having to move the extractor over too much, which takes more force, and could result in bad feeding).

You can increase tension by bending the extractor and not change deflection at all. Every time you change deflection though, the tension of the extractor changes as well. In other words, as long as the locating pad is in touch with the tunnel, deflection is the same regardless of tension. Deflection will never be measured correctly unless the locating pad is in contact with the tunnel wall. When setting up the extractor you must always, always, make sure this occurs.

Most extractors will not fit correctly just by bending it for more or less tension.

1. deflection - increasing deflection reduces tension, and vice versa
2. hook height to breech face
3. hook height from tensioning wall to top of hook - also hook should not hit the case of the .45 cartridge, see #2
4. fps and extractor fitted to eliminate clocking
5. fps and extractor fitted to each other to eliminate front to back play, which would change #2
6. bevel of the bottom edge of tensioning wall so the case can easily enter
7. tension

longarm said:

4. The PAD is apparently also responsible for tension? Or is that DEFLECTION.

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Tension and deflection are closely related. With zero deflection there can be no tension. With too much deflection feeding is compromised even with minimal tension.

It appears to me that the "Deflection" is not entirely a PAD issue, but a PAD and "bend" issue?

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Not exactly. Deflection is strictly controlled by the height of the pad.

Where the PAD is responsible for limiting how close to the centerline the extractor is allowed to reach?

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Precisely correct.

I'm not clear when you honk on the extractor to bend it in/out, versus getting out the files and making a wedge from a lump.

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They happen at the same time. Sort of.

• The first step is to bend the extractor just enough to get the locating pad to make contact with the inner wall of the extractor tunnel. The amount of bend is immaterial as long as it causes the pad to make contact. However, bending it only as much as is need to achieve the contact makes removing and inserting the extractor a little easier.
  
  
• Once contact is established you can insert the gauge to see if it will make solid contact with the left guide block while at the same time making very light contact with the tensioning wall.
  
  
• If there is no contact between the gauge and the tensioning wall, it's time to address deflection.
  
  
• Remove the extractor, remove material from the locating pad, insert the extractor, insert the firing pin stop, run the gauge up the breechface and determine if it is now making solid contact with the left guide block and very light contact with the extractor's tensioning wall.
  
  
• Repeat these steps as many times as need to achieve the contact described above.
  
  
• Importantly, make sure the fitting pad is making contact with the tunnel wall every time you reinsert the extractor and hold it in place with the firing pin stop. If you don't do this, you'll get a false gauge reading and will end up removing too much of the fitting pad at which point you can throw that extractor in the trash and buy a new one.

Deflection adds a time element to the feeding functioning. How long does it take the slide to push the cartridge forward enough to force the case rim fully up under the extractor? The longer it takes the less energy remains to accomplish this task. Too much deflection will cause all the energy to be used up before the cartridge can achieve horizontal alignment with the chamber. Hence the reason for setting the deflection correctly.

longarm said:

Hmm.. Soo... What I've seen from the images/schematics and grasped from the text is:

1. The FPS "locks" the extractor and - if it fits - keeps the extractor aligned bore-wise and vertically.
2. The HOOK is entirely about pulling the rim back out of chamber AND assists to maintain control & guide INTO chamber.
3. The TENSION (side-pressure of extractor on rim thru to the left "guide block") seems to be what is BENT into the extractor, but..
4. The PAD is apparently also responsible for tension? Or is that DEFLECTION.

It appears to me that the "Deflection" is not entirely a PAD issue, but a PAD and "bend" issue? Where the PAD is responsible for limiting how close to the centerline the extractor is allowed to reach?

I'm not clear when you honk on the extractor to bend it in/out, versus getting out the files and making a wedge from a lump.

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1. The FPS does "lock" the extractor so that it cannot rotate aka clock, keeping it perpendicular. If the groove of the extractor where it rides on the FPS is too deep, you get clocking.
2. The hook is there to pull the case out, yes. But it also helps guide the cartridge under the hook, thereby assisting the feed cycle. The radius at the bottom of the hook can allow this to occur easier, as does the bevel on the bottom edge of the tension wall.
2a. The hook must be in the prescribed range of .075" to .085" aka Hook To Breech Distance. Too tight (<.075") and the case rim can have trouble getting under the hook and cause a jam. Too big (>.085") and there is a loss of control, the case can "rattle" around under the hook and not be controlled, erratic ejection, stovepipe jam, etc.
3. Tension, yes, by bending the extractor - remember, if you change deflection, tension changes. But changing tension does not change deflection. Because changing deflection moves the extractor closer to or further away from the centerline and thus changes the spring tension of the bent extractor. More tension can hold the case better during the extraction cycle, especially if deflection is correct.
4. The locating pad is primarily for DEFLECTION adjustment, i.e., you "locate" the extractor so that you get the deflection you want...but remember #3 about changing deflection. Tension ALWAYS changes if deflection changes, that is a side effect of changing deflection.

OK, as mentioned: did trim the nose and chamber the edges of the hook per @theraptur 's original efforts - and that certainly helped. Still not thrilled by the height above rim, or about the cant of the case to breechface, but to carry on..

Steve in Allentown said:

The first step is to bend the extractor just enough to get the locating pad to make contact with the inner wall of the extractor tunnel.

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Well, this is the original extractor - so whatever bend it has is "stock" - where along the length of the thing are you bending? (and I assume a vise here, cuz I can't get the bugger to flex by hand at all ;-)

I'm not even sure it IS impacting the inner tunnel-wall - I'd expect to see streaks from abrasion.

theraptur said:

2a. The hook must be in the prescribed range of .075" to .085" aka Hook To Breech Distance. Too tight (<.075") and the case rim can have trouble getting under the hook and cause a jam. Too big (>.085") and there is a loss of control, the case can "rattle" around under the hook and not be controlled, erratic ejection, stovepipe jam, etc.

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OK, so here is where I need something - like a washer, (or like those round plug-gap widgets) which actually can simulate a RIM and has to be >.075" <.086" thick. It doesn't measure anything but the hook-height-above-breech. (I may unleash lil'bro and his machinist-leanings on this). This is related to Steve's image here., from his Sticky.

Steve in Allentown said:

Once contact is established you can insert the gauge to see if it will make solid contact with the left guide block while at the same time making very light contact with the tensioning wall.

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OK, now - this is the other washer-like gage, right? Leading up to @theraptur 's drawing here. That's all based on the SAAMI and reality of the rim diameter, right? (as much Experience as Blueprints)

The inner hump/pad is there to stop the extractor from getting closer to the centerpine/FP, right? BUT, we are bending the extractor INWARD for tension? (again where) - and the DEFLECTION is the distance the extractor moves outward from centerline? Meaning that either the outer hump.pad is NOT in contact with the tunnel, OR we are literally putting tension on the extractor between the humps/pads and the hook? (That seems like a lot of force).

In the 2nd image of Steve's Sticky, here, it looks like there is an "at rest" position for the extractor as well. Dunno what it is supposed to be - does it matter? Is that only controlled by The Bend? (until we get to filing the inner pad?)

I'm sure I sound nutso, but I am trying to get to understanding this before I get a hammer and a beltsander ;-)

This may help....the principle is the same.

A gage filed to .465" wide can be used to check deflection. You just trim down the upper corner so it will slide up the breechface, be against the left guide block, and lightly touch/kiss the tension wall. That would indicate .010" of deflection. If it is tight, your deflection is more than .010" --- If the gage doesn't touch the tension wall at all, your deflection is less than .010"

You can measure hook-to-breech-distance using a gage that is .075" THICK - in my case I have 3 flat gages stacked together that measure .075" total thickness. The gage should be able to lightly fit under the hook - if it won't, your HTBD is less than .075", no good. I also have a 4th thin gage of .001" that I put together with the three to measure .085" - if it fits under the hook freely, then HTBD is larger than .085"

Just wanted to chime in to say this is a great thread. I'm learning a lot. I was able to use the info here and in @Steve in Allentown 's excellent Extractor thread...

(Steve in Allentown Extractor fitting)

...to check the deflection in my SA Garrison .45 today. The average rim diameter of the cartridges I have was 0.476", so I cut a small piece of mild steel shim stock to 0.466". It just slid in, so no fitting needed, but it was nice to know the deflection value in my pistol.

all I have to say is thanks for posts like this... Steve in Allentown helped me on another forum which led me here. I learned by this post I had to remove material from the tensioning wall to reach .460 (closest I could get my homemade gage) it lightened up my tension on my new WC bulletproof extractor, but the tension is still very good. I did relieve a few edges also according to Steve's post.
I installed the un touched WC extractor and had a few feeding issues, like too much pressure on the case rim and it wouldn't go into battery without a helping forward push... now it tglides the round into the chamber even if I slow ride it. thanks again guys.