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I only safety before reholstering. Finger off the trigger in the meantime. I don't turn the safety on just because I ran out of targets.

I turn the safety on to move though. Just as I would with a carbine. And on that note, that's when speed reholstering is used in training. So I carry a 1911 to carbine shoots instead of my Glocks.
 

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I'd question the quality of any "instructor" that wasn't both:

- absolutely draconian about enforcing safety- and this IS a safety issue

- consistent in the enforcement of standards or rules, and in their training methodology as a whole.

It seems that shooting schools are popping up all over the place; there's no standard for "instructors", particularly for more advanced skills or techniques.... anyone can spend a couple years in the military or as a hobby cop, get an NRA cert and State CCW qual, and hang a shingle...
Agree with this.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
I've learned a lot from this.
Training wasn't all that good. I had no reference.
I certainly need more 1911 training under pressure.
Find instructors that support the 1911 platform.
 

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I've learned a lot from this.
Training wasn't all that good. I had no reference.
I certainly need more 1911 training under pressure.
Find instructors that support the 1911 platform.
Its good that you learned something from this experience...

I wouldn't say that the training was necessarily poor. While I would challenge the instructors dedication to safety, consistency, and personal biases, it doesn't necessarily mean that the techniques and skills you acquired (assuming you did) are invalid.

My question to you would be:

The safety issue aside, did YOU learn anything form participating in this class? Are you a better shooter, did you pick up any new skills? If so, you accomplished what you set out to by taking a class- you learned something. At the very least, you identified a flaw in how you performed under stress, and can work to correct it....
 

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What does indexing your finger mean?
When you take your finger out of the trigger guard, you place it along the frame. Some guys recommend that you angle it as high upward as you can. The placing of the finger out of the trigger guard in the same place every time is referred to as indexing the finger.
 

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Question: I have a 3rd G S&W, Da/Sa, with a decocker safety. Analagous to what you described for the 1911, what should be the protocol for the S&W? Should I decock and holster, and then on draw release the safety to set up a possible DA first shot?
As Tim said, decock and then take the safety off. The 3rd Gen guns, and other DA/SA guns, were intended to be used this way.

The first shot out of the holster is DA. Every one of these guns I've seen has a firing pin block and many have a hammer block when decocked properly. They are completely safe in this condition. The safety is very awkward for most people.

What does indexing your finger mean?

Doc
This:

Notice that my trigger finger cannot be seen from this side. This does two things for you. First it ensures your finger can't accidentally hit the trigger. Second, it ensures that other people, regardless of which side of the gun they are on, can see that you have good trigger discipline.

I call the point where the trigger finger lands the reference point. The trigger finger should be on the reference point at all times except when pointed at the target.
 

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Rastoff

A little off topic but....

I have no issue with a trigger finger indexed in such a way that it cannot be seen, exhibiting as you say "good trigger discipline". However it is inconsistant with NRA, USPSA and IDPA. The rules state outside the trigger guard and off the trigger. Why I bring this up is it is not a trigger finger violation just because the finger can be seen from the opposite side of the firearm.

No biggie except it points to inconsitancy among trainers and competition rules.

All the best,
 

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I'd question the quality of any "instructor" that wasn't both:

- absolutely draconian about enforcing safety- and this IS a safety issue

- consistent in the enforcement of standards or rules, and in their training methodology as a whole.

It seems that shooting schools are popping up all over the place; there's no standard for "instructors", particularly for more advanced skills or techniques.... anyone can spend a couple years in the military or as a hobby cop, get an NRA cert and State CCW qual, and hang a shingle...
I agree with this. Any instructor that is going to enforce a rule for only one individual, because he has a bias against the type of firearm, or for whatever other reason, isn't worth a ****. I'm going on the OP's side of the story here and with that in mind ... I would heed the instructor because he is right but he/they would never get another dime for a course in the future. Unless ... every other single participant was shooting a Glock (or other non external safety handgun). ;)
 

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As a new shooter, I have taken this approach:

-With my Beretta 92, in the holster the safety is on (hence it is decocked). As I draw, I have learned to flip off the safety with my thumb. When reholstering, the safety goes back on.

-With my 1911, when I rack the slide the thumb safety goes on. Condition One while in the holster. Again, as I draw the thumb safety goes off.

This seems to work for me.
 

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Rastoff

A little off topic but....

I have no issue with a trigger finger indexed in such a way that it cannot be seen, exhibiting as you say "good trigger discipline". However it is inconsistant with NRA, USPSA and IDPA. The rules state outside the trigger guard and off the trigger. Why I bring this up is it is not a trigger finger violation just because the finger can be seen from the opposite side of the firearm.

No biggie except it points to inconsitancy among trainers and competition rules.

All the best,
I read a few articles that got into the reasoning behind the high index... all agree that when you flinch or tense up (in a fight or as you see an incoming punch or whatever) and the natural startle reflex cause an involuntary squeeze of the hands and if you are out of the gaurd and level, your finger will squeze right onto the trigger.

With a little practice, I don't think there is a perceivable difference in time to trigger from the high or low index.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
I absolutely did pick up some skills. Martial arts, gun retention and under stress skills just to name a few.
Was it worth it? Yes. I would imagine there is no perfect instructor.
 

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I absolutely did pick up some skills. Martial arts, gun retention and under stress skills just to name a few.
Was it worth it? Yes. I would imagine there is no perfect instructor.
It sounds like the training overall was good for you since you left with a better skill set than you arrived with.

While no instructor is perfect, and all have their own personality quirks, there are some things that separate good from average from poor... we've already discussed what's applicable in your case.

If you plan on attending more training, spend some time researching both the business and the cadre. Read their bios carefully, and try to separate the quantifiables from the extraneous fluff. If there's too much fluff and not as much substance, move on... What is their REAl experience, both operational and as an instructor? The best shooter in the world may not have the ability to teach effectively... Decide if traveling for training is feasible- there are plenty of very good and exceptional schools and instructors, but they may not be local to you. Identify YOUR training objectives, and select a class that meets your goals... Expect to pay for quality; a good intermediate or advanced POI taught by an experienced, skilled instructor seems to cost at least $125/day + ammo and personal expenses. If someone is offering a 3 day advanced class for $150, be very cautions...
 

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I am not an instructor but often shoot at my private range with others- many of whom have little experience shooting.

If they have a holster, I always have them engage the safety if the gun is so equipped before holstering.
I always watch them very carefully when they are reholstering.
I insist they watch the gun go all the way back into the holster, finger indexed, no obstructions, not pointing muzzle at themselves in the process, and that it is done slowly and deliberately. There is no reason to rush.
I don't see why stress should cause one to not engage a safety when reholsterring: there shouldn't be any stress when reholstering. If there is, why is the gun getting put away?

My range - my rules or they don't shoot there.
 

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I took an advanced pistol course a few weeks ago and used my S&W PC bobtail that ran like a top for almost 600 rounds.
I engage my thumb safety before holstering out of habit. When stress was introduced into the drills, I was caught a couple times not engaging the safety...I learned something about myself. Never had an issue flipping off the safety during my draw...lucky I guess.
I make my own holsters and design them with high leather backing. I sew a leather button or cam to the backing which forces the safety lock into engagement as the gun is holstered. I test a new holster by shoving an unloaded, cocked and unlocked gun in -- and it passes the test if the gun is locked when I draw it.
 

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....there shouldn't be any stress when reholstering. If there is, why is the gun getting put away?
I can't speak for others but if I was in a high stress scenario requiring me to unholster/fire my weapon, there's a good chance I will still be affected after the event is over as well (during the time I am making the gun safe, reholstering, etc.). Perhaps even more so in a real defensive situation since the reality of what just occurred and how I need to deal with the aftermath would likely be rushing to mind once the threat(s) is neutralized.
 

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I can't speak for others but if I was in a high stress scenario requiring me to unholster/fire my weapon, there's a good chance I will still be affected after the event is over as well (during the time I am making the gun safe, reholstering, etc.). Perhaps even more so in a real defensive situation since the reality of what just occurred and how I need to deal with the aftermath would likely be rushing to mind once the threat(s) is neutralized.
What you say is true -- which is why I design my holsters with a cam that engages the safety lock as the gun is holstered.

But here is a point, what you say about still being affected after the event is ALSO true -- and a quite common occurrence. Therefore we should be prepared for it. When the need for the gun is over, stop, take deep breaths, review what you need to do next, and do it slooowly and carefully.

In some defensive situations, when the action is over and you don't need the gun anymore, your best bet may be to clear it and put it on the ground at your feet and wait for the police to arrive.
 

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What you say is true -- which is why I design my holsters with a cam that engages the safety lock as the gun is holstered.

But here is a point, what you say about still being affected after the event is ALSO true -- and a quite common occurrence. Therefore we should be prepared for it. When the need for the gun is over, stop, take deep breaths, review what you need to do next, and do it slooowly and carefully.

In some defensive situations, when the action is over and you don't need the gun anymore, your best bet may be to clear it and put it on the ground at your feet and wait for the police to arrive.
I agree completely.
 

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fletchero:

Startle effect!

Yes, I have read the same articles. There is plenty of evidence to support that it doesn't matter where your finger is indexed if you are going to react during stress you will find the trigger.


Proper training and lots of practice will mitigate the so called "startle effect"!

As an aside I was merely pointing out that there is a conflict between some trainers and competition rules. I have seen some inexperienced RO's try to call a trigger finger violation when in fact it was not. The trigger finger was properly indexed but not pointing "upward"!

All the best,
 

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fletchero:

Startle effect!

Yes, I have read the same articles. There is plenty of evidence to support that it doesn't matter where your finger is indexed if you are going to react during stress you will find the trigger.


Proper training and lots of practice will mitigate the so called "startle effect"!

As an aside I was merely pointing out that there is a conflict between some trainers and competition rules. I have seen some inexperienced RO's try to call a trigger finger violation when in fact it was not. The trigger finger was properly indexed but not pointing "upward"!

All the best,
Gotcha, I just wanted to point out the reasons I had read for the high index and didn't mean to imply you did or did not get it.

My own experience- My finger isn't long enough to clear the trigger guard by much so if I ever did flinch with a low index, I very well could pull the trigger. I have flinched/been startled, with a high index and did not end up in the trigger guard. (I got hit with a branch that fell on my head) From that moment on, I realized the value of the high index for me.
 
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