[bountyhunter]

For the third time in recent days, I read a thread asserting that the cocked and locked 1911 gave the fastest accurate shots on target of any gun..... I don't necessarily think this is false, but does anybody have any data that shows it's true?

I would think that a revolver or DAO auto (chambered round) would give the fastest time to shot since you just clear the holster and pull as opposed to releasing a safety and then pulling the trigger. Again, anybody know why the 1911 fan keep sounding this particular trumpet?

 

[Liberty45]

bountyhunter

I've no empirical data... but 20 years of pretty exhaustive firearms experience does lead me to the conclusion the conclusion you're questioning.

For me, it's mostly about the trigger. A properly tuned 1911 trigger (breaking somewhere between 3 and 4 pounds) is the key. No other pistol (revolver or semi-auto) that I'm aware of has a comparably sensitive and crisp trigger (when tuned correctly). With proper practice, the bullet is flying downrange almost the instant the sights are on the target.

Of course, you can achieve the same effect with any other handgun with enough practice... but for me, not as easily as with a 1911.

The thumb safety, for me, is not a factor. I was taught to sweep the safety off as the weapon is presented, and therefore it does not add to the time required to bring the weapon into action.

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Liberty45 Sends

 

[RANash]

I think that the key to the speed here is the shooter more than the gun.

 

[JoeG]

Only because it's true.

I suggest you shoot in a IPSC match. In open competition, where speed is king, single action semi-auto is the only real gun to have.

Having a timer, I will shoot faster with my 45 auto than with a revolver or double action pistol. Also, having a light single action trigger, most will shoot with more accuracy.

 

[SHUZ]

Originally posted by JoeG:
Only because it's true.

I suggest you shoot in a IPSC match. In open competition, where speed is king, single action semi-auto is the only real gun to have.

Unless your Jerry Miculek. In that case, a S&W revolver will do just fine. I know this guy challenges what the human body is supposed to be capable of with respect to Sir Isaac Newtons Laws of Modern Physics, but he has proved many times that a 1911 in capable hands doesnt make you the 'King of Speed'.

A buddy of mine told me about a conversation he had with Jerry Miculek years ago, where Mr Miculek told him he had switched from a 1911 to a revolver in competition because he actually felt like he was waiting for the slide to return into battery so he could make his followups.

With a revolver he felt he had more control over the speed of things. He felt that he didnt have to wait for the laws of modern physics to return the slide to battery.

I dont know how much truth there is to this, but I have no reason to disbelieve the guy who told me.

It makes since as a thought even though I have no idea how a human being could sense such a thing. Sounds like something out of a superhero comic book, but seeing him shoot you realize deep down inside that no 1911 in the world will make you faster than him and his S&W DA revolvers.

 

[themao]

Jerry Miculek, Rob Leatham, Doug Koeing...all of those guys are comic book heroes. They should have a Saturday morning cartoon series and a comic book. Those guys truly are legends.

themao

 

[LAK]

"...Mr Miculek told him he had switched from a 1911 to a revolver in competition because he actually felt like he was waiting for the slide to return into battery so he could make his followups...."

This why - in the hands of many people - a pump is faster than a selfloader shotgun.

How fast depends on many things. Fast and accurate more so. Miculek is one of quite a few revolver shooters who have had the will, vision, coordination, reflexes and motor skills etc, and the time to practice and perfect what they do.

A great many people do not function quicker than their 1911 can cycle. I have never timed myself with a revolver vs pistol, but I do know I can shoot more accurately at speed with a pistol. As mentioned already above - the trigger is probably the main factor here.

 

[jason10mm]

I'm with Liberty45, I rest my strong hand thumb on the safety as a part of my normal shooting grip, so disengaging it is just a part of my normal presentation. I do know some guys that feel that the GLock is faster, but I think this is mostly because you can get a crappy grip on the Glock and still fire off a shot. If I fumble the presentation on the 1911 then it takes an extra fraction of a second to get my thumb on the safety and depress the grip safety. I don't think the Glock is any faster, but is more forgiving of operator error

LAter.

 

[MuzzleBlast]

Originally posted by SHUZ:
Unless your Jerry Miculek. In that case, a S&W revolver will do just fine.

I think boutyhunter was referring to the speed of getting the first shot off from the holster rather than rate of fire.

 

[bountyhunter]

Muzzleblast is correct: I was asking about speed from holster to target. The source of the question comes from (many years back) watching the world fast draw championships and I remember two things clearly:

1) They were all using revolvers.

2) The winner was woman (true for a number of years).

I saw her do an exhibition where she started with her hand along side the holster (on a timer button) and drew and fired which stopped the clock.. I remember the total time was .08 seconds (not a misprint.. it was actually below one-tenth of a second).

Of course, the actual movement could not be seen. I recently saw the current champion (who is male) doing a demonstration and he also shot faster than the eye could track (it took slo-mo to see him). One amazing thing was where he shot two ballons out and you heard (I swear) only one shot. Again, it took slo-mo to prove two shots had been fired. The real kicker: IT WAS A SINGLE ACTION REVOLVER.... he was cocking and firing the gun for each shot (again, only seen in slo-mo). If I hadn't seen it, I would never have believed it.

 

[Rosco Benson]

The fastest shot is interesting. The fastest HIT is important.

The question of what sort of hardware and technique allows for the fastest hit was the object of the "leatherslap" competitions held by Jeff Cooper in Big Bear Lake, California close to half a century ago. The contest was freestyle as to technique and equipment and involved hitting a balloon some little distance (7 yards?) away, before one's opponent could hit his. Single-action revolvers, double-action revolvers, & autopistols of various sorts competed together.

Among the things learned was that no particular pistol type has any great advantage, in quickness to the first hit, compared to the other types. The superiority of eye-level, two-handed shooting was also revealed (it offered nearly the speed of the hipshot, but with more certainty of hitting).

Not to denigrate the superhuman skills of a Bob Munden, but his style of quick-draw relates to practical shooting like funny car drag racing relates to transportation. It is somewhat related, but it is way off to one side.

Rosco

[This message has been edited by Rosco Benson (edited 11-28-2001).]