Unsafe gunhandling at Single Stack Classic

I can't see the round you speak of but I assume it's more claerly visable in the picture you scanned.

As far as I know there is no rule to prevent one from press checking so long as one does not put their finger infront of the muzzle, under it doesn't count.

Assuming the gun is loaded that would certainly be a match DQ.

From the picture it does appear that his muzzle is not down range, if that is the case that would also be a DQ.

Of course in order for a DQ to happen there must be a match official present and he must see the infraction.

The other thing I'm curious about is that you say the picture is from the SSC. The gun looks very much like a Beretta Elite to me, did you personally take this picture and if not are you sure of it's origin?

Tim

You don't know if your chamber is loaded? Why?

I quit the practice a while ago. LFI does not allow them at their courses. Sure, ya look cool doing it, but why take a risk?

Don't press checks break the "180 degree" rule?

Also, if you should have an AD while your finger is resting on the plug (not over the barrel itself), what makes you think you'll keep that first knuckle or two of your trigger finger after the rapid and violent escape of hot gas anyway?

If I absolutley have to, and I absolutely don't want to just simply rack the whole slide (to make damn sure there's one in there), I take my weak hand thumb, put it pad forward into the trigger guard, and then I take the first two fingers of my left hand and grasp around the top of the slide just in front of the ejection port and use those two fingers to eases the slide back a couple of millimeters. This is still a safety violation and should make any RO exclaim "Finger!".

Again, I think its a bad habit with nil practical utility.

I don't know the story on the photo, but it seems that there is no better place to unload a pistol upon arriving at a cold range event than at the "fiddle table". Is it safer for him to do it in his car, in the parking lot? Is that not what a fiddle table is for?

The classic press-check seems to excite some folks, put I've never seen a problem arise from it. The weak-hand thumb being placed into and against the front of the triggerguard pretty much ensures that the trigger finger is straight and registered along the side of the pistol. Also, remember what one is trying to accomplish with a press-check. One is either ascertaining the chamber's status because he is "gearing up" to holster the pistol and go out into the world, about to go into a dangerous situation which has presented itself in such a way so as to permit a quick equipment check, or he wants to unload the piece in order to work on it, clean it, dry-practice or whatever. In each of these cases, it is pretty darn important to have verified the status of the chamber. As with the decision to possess the gun, we accept a certain level of risk in order to mitigate another, greater risk.

I do agree that the shooter should have the pistol pointing at a safe backstop. Perhaps he does, but I can't tell that from the photo.

Rosco

OK, well this is sort of getting off topic here, and I don’t want it to seem like I’m disagreeing with what’s been posted just for the sake of disagreeing with it – but I still think press checks are just an accident waiting to happen. I do however, absolutely agree with the above assertion that people should know the status of their firearms before they go out and about in the world – to do otherwise would be complete idiocy.

First off, I have no first hand knowledge of anyone losing a fingertip due to a press check gone awry. To be honest, I have no first hand knowledge of anybody I know of being injured by an AD or a ND - Garand thumb, AR pinky, oh yeah – but press check, no. So that right there provides no proof as to the inherit danger of this habit one way or another.

Secondly, I think it may be a somewhat dangerous assumption that the placement of the weak hand thumb inside the trigger guard is a guarantee that the trigger finger of the shooting hand is resting safely on the opposite side of the gun. The last time I checked, both the tip of my weak hand thumb and my trigger finger fit in the space between the trigger face and the trigger guard. An argument could be made that people with large digits and long triggers would simply have their trigger finger pushed out of the way by the horizontal insertion of the weak hand thumb. Along those lines, I’ve got sausages for fingers and a Chip Mic extended trigger installed. When I tried it the only thing that happened was that the thumbnail met the fingernail and rearward pressure was applied. And I think most would agree that that’s an unsafe position to be in with a possibly loaded firearm whether the safeties are on or not. In a hurry, in a dark bedroom, or at anytime or place, that’s bad ju-ju.

Finally, I fully realize that people will do whatever they want to do – and if someone wants to do press checks with a loaded 1911 – rock on, nothing I say is going to stop them. I’ve learned long ago that a brief, calm lecture on the dangers of violating the “180 rule”, or the “treat every firearm as if it is loaded” law of safety overwhelmingly pales in comparison to the feeling some dudes get by imitating the actions of movie stars Steven Segal, Brad Pitt, and other Hollywood press checkers.

Folks that feel strongly about this practice can call me a “Safety Sissy” if they want (I can live with that). Again, forgive me if it seems I’m trying to stir up an argument; I’m just trying to present an alternate viewpoint.

Dolomite,

Given your statement, "Don't press checks break the "180 degree" rule?" it appears as if you aren't clear about what the 180 degree rule is. There is nothing about a press check that would necessary violate the rule.

Press checks have been a part of the "Modern Technique" of the pistol since the phrase was coined. If it is unsafe for you, don't do it.

The gentleman in question has been doing press checks for nigh on 20 years. He is highly trained and superbly skilled, and I can assure you that none of his technique was learned from Seagal or Pitt or anyone else in Hollywood.

I can also assure you that all four rules of gun safety are being observed by this gentleman in the picture in question, as well as at any other time. Those rules are as much a part of him as his height. In fact, he has an open invitation to kick him "square in the ass" if he ever violates one of the rules. It will never happen.

His actions are safe. Just because his actions are contrary to a set of rules and he is doing it in an area arbitrarily defined as a "Safe Area" doesn't make his actions unsafe. Regardless of what you may think.

I acquiesce as to the point that I misrepresented the common definition of the “180” rule as used in IDPA, IPSC, SSC competition, etc. I guess the point I was trying to make was that when handling a firearm, the axial area in front of, or anything 180 degrees forward of the barrel opening, is THE PLACE for things to go that the operator wishes to rapidly ventilate. My verbiage was wrong and I admit it.

I honestly don’t know this guy from Adam. (and some of my best friends are immature people anyway). I’m not attacking this person and I’m not attacking the 1911 Society, but apparently I’ve tread upon some sort of sacred ground here. Uncle. I quit.

My final words on this topic, and probably the last comments I’ll ever make in regard to the dangerous habit of press checks on these forums are right here:

1. Twenty years of doing press checks and somebody still has all ten of their fingers? Bravo-Zulu.
2. The photo’s subject is only violating “arbitrarily defined ” safety rules? Whatever –- I'd like to proffer the whacko idea that there could be more than 4 rules to gun safety, modern or otherwise.

Well, here goes.
So what if he press checks? Anyone that has a weapon, should know how to use it. There seems to be a certain amount of hysteria over the idea of an individual press-checking their pistol. I seem to recall a certail amount of hysteria from new 1911 users (myself included) over carrying one cocked and locked. For that matter, what about those guys that pin their grip safety?
What I see here is the same thing I see from the government trying to tell us that our guns are unsafe becuase there is a "human factor" involved.
Should a person that owns a gun have an ND, then obviously, that person is to blame.
IDPA, IPSC, and other shooting organizations that say press checking is illegal, have a right to do so, simply becuase it's their game, and they get to make up the rules.
Does anyone here PERSONALLY know someone that has shot their finger off, lost digits due the escaping gas, or some other such horrible trauma, directly related to the alleged unsafe act of press checking?

Just Curious,
Steve

Originally posted by TaxPhd:
To comment on the maturity of someone that you don't know, based on a photo and an internet discussion, is foolish. However, this discussion is about safety, not maturity.

Click to expand...

My response was not basd on a photo it was based on the statements made by a person who; A, claimed to know the individual and; B, claimed to know the circumstances of the photo. If the person who made these claims is wrong or gave inncorrect info then I am certainly willing to state that my conclusions are also inccorect. If on the otherhand the statements made are true then I stand by my observations.

If a person were to press check a loaded pistol in their house (or any other location) and observed the four rules of gun safety, most would agree that this would be safe (forgetting for the moment those with an irrational fear of press checks). To do the same thing in a "Safe Area" does not change the nature of the act. His actions are safe.

His actions are also the intentional violation of the rules of a praticular sporting organization. Out of curiosity, did he inform the match officials of his intent to intentionaly break these rules so that they could be witnesses to his 'protest' of their incorrect rules or did he do it when no official witnesses were present so that he could avoid the penalty that would certainly come if his actions were observed?

Tim

It's simple fellas. Press check dont press check, whatever. Dont matter to me BUT!!!! dont let me find you standing next to me in a safety zone with a loaded weapon. I just might shoot 1st. Safe zone = no ammo!!! If you press check in a safe zone and find a round staring back at you. YOU ARE AN IDIOT. It means you probably left a round in the gun from the last match. Drove with a loaded gun home. Came back to the range with a loaded gun and then finally figured out it was loaded. I jack the slide 3/4 times in rapid succesion to make damn sure my gun is clear.


I have seen situations where a competitor has found himself hot or unsure of his status. What he did was have the ro take him to the firing line to check the weapon and then after clearing the gun or confirming it empty, bag or holster it.

[This message has been edited by shane45 (edited 04-26-2001).]

I have never experienced a problem press checking and don't know of anyone who has. Possibly because I don't know anyone who uses the technique and, to each his own, but I would not use it myself on a bet. That is partially because I believe that, yes, it is unsafe, especially in a tense or distraction-rich situation. Imagine somebody bumps your strong-side elbow from behind while press checking, or the vehicle you are riding in jumps a curb during some evasive driving related to your sudden urge to see if the round that you chambered this morning dun took off by itself somehow.

The other reason I don't use it is because I think that just about any other method is easier and quicker to execute, with fewer fine motor movements involved. And safer. Oops, already said that.

I assisted in a class taught by one of the better-known roving instructors. He did not teach press-checking. The one and only thing he told the class that I did not agree with was relative to what to do with a pistol whilst #2-ing in a public restroom. His last recommended move before reholstering was to check the chamber. If I hear somebody doing a chamber-check in the stall next to me, I will consider that person porrly potty-trained.

I did see an ND and subsequent DQ at this year's Single Stack. These sports have a very good safety record because of strict enforcement of safety rules, that is a good thing; the guy that got DQ'd understood this and took it like a trooper.


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NFC

Getting away from all the name calling for a moment, I don't think the picture is as horrible as claimed.

I don't know why you are hammering on the guy in the picture so much. Yes, he may be on a COLD range, but cold ranges need places to verify that guns are cold or where they can be made cold. He IS in the proper area to be checking his gun to verify it was or was not loaded, hence the dry fire aiming point which is a measure to verify that your observations were in fact correct. I don't know the context of the photo. He may have been demonstrating the purpose of the area and showing why you use the area. Note, it is not a "Safe" are but a "Safety" Area for doing safety procedures such as checking to see if your gun is truly unloaded or not, something encouraged regardless of what you 'know' to be true before you start. Many people 'know' there gun is unloaded when it then goes off. Why do you think there is an area to check such things?

I wasn't at the event, so I don't know if the guy is looking up range or not. If he is doing a demonstration of some sort, then I don't see a problem.

I also know of no reason why press checking is outdated or unsafe. Is there some rule in IDPA or IPSC or any other group that says this is wrong?

By the way, the age of a technology, action, or procedure is not a relevant evaulative comment. It does not matter how old something is if it works fine.