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Discussion Starter #1
OK, you are in the supermarket when a terrorist decides to storm in with an AK. He wants to kill anyone on site. There IS a back door (are you thinking about your kids?)What handgun do you want on your hip?

Are you worried about accuracy? Is there a puddle beneath your feet?

Do you want 2 extra mags with potent .45 but only 7 rounds each OR do you want 9mm +P with 15-17 in the gun and another 30-34 rounds on tap?

Now do you have faith in that expensive-custom-tight railed-low tolerance-shiny gun or do you want one of those newfangled polymer contraptions that survive salt spray and still shoot with dirt in them?

He's spraying and praying to Allah.

Are you spraying and praying too?

I ask this because just perhaps the times are changing. I don't care what anyone says, when the attorney general, FBI and the President all say to watch my 6, you got to think there is a clear and present danger. This isn't just a guy with a knife trying to mug you anymore (as if that wasn't enough). These are people that don't want anything but your life or to terrorize you. Sometimes I don't think body armor is enough.

Am I too reactionary? Does anyone else share my concerns or had these thoughts?
 

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Hmmm...given the name of this forum, I think I know what most of the answers will be.


Would I feel more secure with a Glock than my SA Mil-Spec 1911? Nah. If high-capacity was a concern for me, I'd have bought a Para Ordnance. 9mm? No thanks.

This is a good topic, by the way. Sure to produce some interesting responses.

(Of course, as a CA resident, carrying a handgun of any type in a public area is pure fantasy, not to mention in a situation like this.)

[This message has been edited by GI-45 (edited 10-14-2001).]
 

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Axe,
How many people stand to lose their lives if I don't act? That is the real question. Based on a supermarket scenario, I would assume more than 10. I would with 100% certainty choose to carry my Semi-custom tight railed gun over any other choice especially Glock. Why, because the last 1,000 rds have been fired without a malfunction of any type. My pistol has proven itself as being both reliable and accurate. Although a pistol isn't the best option in this scenario but, it is my only lethal option and I would use it.

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Good question. Now here's my poor reply. I would hope that tactics could win out over hardware in this and every situation. I mostly carry a .38 snub (in the summer) and that would be of little use against a rifle. So I'd have to close the distance. Today I am going out to brunch with my wife (3rd wedding anniversary) and I will be carrying a Colt .45 Govt. with one reload. That's more comforting. I also have a 9mm BHP in the safe. So which? They could all do the job, but I would hope in all the sceaming and shooting I could close to within 15 yards and knock him down with a few rounds before running up and finishing it at close range. Probably no puddle until afterwards, but a whole lot of "shrinkage" and a pucker factor of 10+.
 

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I normally carry a tight railed GM with 2 reloads. My pistol is reliable or I wouldn't carry it. I train for just this type of encounter and others. I would try using cover and concealment to get within 20 yds (closer if possible) and then when the opportunity presents itself, engage. Bear down and make the shot(s). Absolutely not slipping out the back. The first duty of the strong is to protect the weak.

Then go over to the paper goods aisle and pick up some TP for a cleanup.


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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken
 

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All of this is depending on the situation. If you have your family with you, time constrants, etc. If you've got any brains you'll scoot out the back door and call 911 and inform them you need the police and a SWAT team. When they arrive you can fill them in on the situation and the weaponry involved. You may also be the best witness at this point in the upcoming murder/robbery trial down the road.

Or, you can play gunstore commander and try to toe to toe it out with a guy with an AK. I suspect you'll lose.
 

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He's spraying and praying to Allah.
If he's spraying, odds are he doesn't practice tactical reloads. Wait for the sound of an empty mag to hit the floor. Double tap to the body and one to the head. May as well grat his wish to be a martyr.

Eddie

[This message has been edited by Eddie (edited 10-14-2001).]
 

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My SA 1911 in my Rafter S rig. I would wish that my 10rd wilsons were in the offside carrier, but I'm thinking 7rdrs would be fine. It only takes one shot!



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"I don't want to use a 2 million dollar bomb to bomb a 10 dollar tent and hit a camel in the ass. . ."
 

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Eddie and the Colonel have it spot on. If my kids are with me I am going to evac to a safe area and call for SWAT. My first responsibilty is to keep them safe.

If I am by myself I look for some concealment. Notice I said concealment, not cover. There is nothing in my local store that would provide reliable cover against an AK. Then when his gun goes dry taps to the body and head. Why the head? Body armor. Remember the LA bank robbers.
 

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Full auto AK-47? Doesn't the Brady bill prevent this from happening?


Since he's not aiming, I will. Pop my gun and right eye from behind a counter, sight in on his head, slow squeeze, and add brain to the deli selection. Either I get hit (maybe killed) by random fire before I take the shot, or he will be 100% dead. After looking at the Palestinian - Isreali scorecard, it looks like statistics favor the aimed shot.

And yes, this would be done with my tight toleranced, non-plastic 5" GM that I carry, one shot, and no belief in an afterlife to be rewarded in.

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-Electric Armadillo-
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Yasir Arrafat (On going to war over religion)
 

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Location, Location, Location. What is yours? So much depends on the terrain.

Normal carry gun would suffice. A Commander, BHP or P7, all carried with one spare mag, and normally a BU of a Kel Tec P11 or P32.

Tactics would depend on the terrain, who was with me, people other than mine present, people down, etc. Good place for a cell phone in hands of SO. GLV
 

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If I were in the situation that you describe...
I do not have kids(yet) but if I did, they would be raised knowing that it would be better to die trying to save the lives of others if you have the means then to run away.
They would know to be proud of their father, live their life by his example.
I wouldn't want to go home to anyone and have to explain to them that, "Yeah, I had my gun with me, but I didn't want to die, it's not my problem." And then later on potentially have to explain that same thing to twenty or thirty families that you had the means to save their family members lives, but chose to save my own life and run away.

Given the fact that most terrorist activities like you describe seldom occur with only one terrorist(unless it is a suicide bombing), I figure that I would only be able to get to 2 terrorists with my trusty 1911, where I would have roughly 12 to 14 rounds to throw at them.

Tactically I would put 2 down and try to draw the others toward me. I'd hope that someone else might pick up a downed terrorists AK and help, but if not, I would circle around, grab the AK for myself and finish the job.

But this is all speculation, and I might only get one of the guys before eating 30 rounds from an AK, who knows.
 

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The cartridge capacity of one's sidearm is not a big issue in the situation postulated. One is more likely to run out of time (that is, opportunity to deck the shooter before he decks you) before one runs out of ammo. A protracted "duel" is extremely unlikely. In skilled hands, a rifle can be devastatingly effective in short range encounters, as in the infamous Miami FBI shoot-out.

Rosco
 

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A 45 it would definately be. And there are 8 available. So if the opportunity presents itself. I would skip out the door. And hopefully slow down enough to call 911 at the booth. Now if I was trapped I would wait for approach and unload to body then head. Whoever says head then body is asking for trouble. The head shot will more than likely miss on one shot. And even into a vest, a 45 will spin or knock gunman off balance. Then comes the scenerio ending head shots.
 

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GI-45, I actually know John Holbrook (the guy in the Vietnam story). He even showed me that .45 of his once. The fact is John won because he kept his cool and hit the enemy soldiers before they even knew what was happening. The range was also very close so that the rifle only had a small advantage.

Up against a creep with an AK in a supermarket, my armament and tactics would be the same. Get behind cover, stay unseen until he got close enough that I wouldn't miss, then let him have it with my trusty .45! I could always be a hero and pluck up screaming kids and shield pretty women with my body while blazing away back at him, but I honestly don't think that would do any of us any good. Unless I had a hi-cap rifle of my own (not bloody likely in a supermarket) I'd have to get the tactical advantage first and seek cover, even if that meant the creep had a few extra seconds to continue his rampage.

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D. Kamm
USGI M1911/M1911A1 Pistols Website
http://www.geocities.com/M1911_M1911A1
 

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Discussion Starter #19
It is interesting to note that many of you with family and children would go out the back door. In my scenario, I assumed I was alone, no family with me, but children and a wife waiting at home. I am the sole provider.

However, this maniac is starting to kill other children's parents and breadwinners.

OK, if you are in the back of the store and the SIHTF up front are you going to run up front down those long isles? You already hear people screaming and dying, are you a coward if you think that SWAT is the better answer, or do you think that your sacrifice will be justified? Would you really be a hero if you were up front and confronted and basically had no choice? It would probably be instinct that would allow you to survive, if at all. (BTW, flight 93 passangers were considered heroes because they had no choice about dying, but they did have a choice to keep other people from dying, or at least making an effort to stop the terrorists).

Would you be stupid or a hero if you went up front looking for trouble or looking to put an end to the carnage? I am not sure.

Also, this question wasn't about 1911 is better than Glock or vice versa. I don't own a Glock. But I also don't carry my 1911 very much, I carry my KT P40. But it is good to about 7 yards, and forget accuracy with shaky hands beyond that....head taps with the KT....forget about it. I carry my KT for personal protection if someone attakcs me in my personal space. This scenario calls upon YOU as a citizen to think about doing something more and with greater accuracy OR getting out and going home to your family. I'm afraid you know what the odds are you will live going up against an AK.

Finally, alot of you on this board and also on Glocktalk say you train for this. Well, I trained a lot for cracking peoples chests open too.....in theory... but until I was on call every other night at Cook County and finally got the chance to crack achestand pump a heart, I didn't know how I would do. Then, after enough triple zero gunshot wounds came in that I had cracked plenty of chests, only then did my pulse rate not go up.

Do you think your pulse rate would go up?Have you got the will? Do you really know? Are you kidding yourself?

I am also willing to bet that there are those who have come under fire. They have a legitimate claim to know the answers to those questions. The rest of us can only surmise EVEN if we have been to gunsite or frontsite, thunder ranch,, etc. etc.
 

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I would rather have an AK also. Unfortunately I will only have my pistol. That is what the pistol does, it finishes fights others start. If you knew terrorists would be there you would have a different weapon.
Also about getting out; if you feel the need go. But remember, those are somebody's wives, husbands and kids up there dying. The first duty of the strong is to protect the weak.

This is why we train. If we cower down and get on the cell phone (not that making a call wouldn't be prudent but to stay hid while people are dying?) we might as well sell our guns and let our CCW lapse.

To answer the question, how will we react? Most will follow their training and what they have thought of as their code. Of course, no one knows but to think that most will freeze is wrong and to say that you have to have been in combat to be able to press forward is wrong. You get experience by doing. All combat veterans started out as rookies. You either perform or you don't. I wouldn't want my children or grandchildren to know I fled while innocents were being slaughtered.

I have been to Thunder Ranch and to Awerbuck courses. They help greatly with weapons manipulation. They also help with the mindset. You talk the talk, sometime you may have to walk the walk.

Persevere

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"Even the most normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats"
Mencken

[This message has been edited by BillD (edited 10-15-2001).]
 
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