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Hi All,

As we all know UPS and Fed ex rules dictate that we send our guns via there companies from customer to ffl and back. We also know it stems from the guns stolen by employees in Georgia. There is nothing federal about the laws BUT it is there sandbox.

Has anyone sent a gun via UPS or Fed Ex that was lost and the companies did not pay the insurance stating they would not insure because we did not abide by there rules?

We had a gun Missing, it turned up, but wile tracing it the UPS rep said it would not cover insurance as it was not sent next day air.

as an aside, does anyone have a link to the UPS and Fed Ex shipping rules?
this would be an asset to people sending guns to there favorite Gunsmith for work. People call every week stating they tried to send there gun and the person at the counter said they can not. The print out from there own site would be helpful.

best regards
geo

www.egw-guns.com
 

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Thanks for the post here George. I will add this as I spoke with George on the phone this am about this matter.

I do know that UPS Stores are independently owned and operated AND they don't always KNOW or do they have to abide by UPS policy per say. Just know this when using UPS Stores.

I too am curious to see what responses Geo gets on this subject. It is unfortunate that people shipping handguns have to 'pay' for the actions of others and to have us pay to protect OUR stuff from employees.

Lets keep it to personal experiences shipping handguns.


Bring it on!
 

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Here's a link to FedEx Policy





http://www.fedex.com/us/services/terms/us.html#firearms

1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required Delivery Signature Option or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
 

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When I've shipped with UPS in the past - I boxed my handgun up securely in an eggshell case, then put the case inside a larger box full of packing peanuts, and mashed it down tight, then taped the outer box securely, marked on it that it was fragile, and took it down to the shipper to mail.

I didn't disclose what was in the box, the shipper didn't ask, and I sent it out UPS next day air to Springfield Armory.


I've also bought guns on gunbroker where the shipper just dropped them in the mail to my FFL via regular USPS priority mail in a flat-rate box.
 

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FedEx Ground Shipping Policy-Please note this is separate from FedEx Express.

http://www.fedex.com/us/services/terms/groundtariff.html#firearms



1. FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required Delivery Signature Option or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release, driver release or indirect delivery.
3. FedEx Ground cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D.
4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Ground is required to notify FedEx Ground that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
7. FedEx Ground will transport small-arms ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Hazardous Materials section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as hazardous materials. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
8. FedEx Ground will not accept for transport handguns, assembled or disassembled.
 

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UPS Policy

Here is the short version of UPS gun shipping policy:
http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/re...es/firearms.html?srch_pos=1&srch_phr=firearms

Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms

Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws.


You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store® or any third-party retailer, or with international services.

Follow These Packing Requirements
Your packages that contain handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS
Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)

About Documentation and Labeling
When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS, you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery

Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS
You can only ship your package that contains a firearm from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers
When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk
You can use UPS daily pickup accounts to ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On-Call PickupSM, and One-Time Pickup
Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services
See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for shipping firearms
 

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I didn't disclose what was in the box, the shipper didn't ask, and I sent it out UPS next day air to Springfield Armory.
If I'm not mistaken, this is in violation of federal laws. You are required to disclose contents, if it is a firearm, to third party shippers.
And your not allowed to drive over the speed limit :D

It wasn't only GA that had a theft problem at UPS. We had the same situation here in the Columbia, SC hub. The package handlers had cohorts that pulled the trucks around to the loading docks after the drivers returned the trucks in the evening. They would place packages they wanted to steal in the truck, then the "truck wrangler" would move it after loaded, but drive close to the fence line on the property (at night) and toss the box over the fence. After they got off their shift, they would recover the packages. After reading this, I NEVER include the name of the mfgr. Just initals of the business. When I sent my Garand in to Springfield, Inc. I asked the e-mail contact what initals I should use because I was not going to advertise the company. I think I went with something like "S Inc."
 

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On the packaging note, UPS and FedEx employees are usually more delicate with their handling of packages than the US Postal goons. I mailed a scope through the USPS and I packed, wrapped the box very well, plus I had written "Fragile - Glass" on four sides in large letters. It didn't matter one bit, the female took the box and flipped it into a large bin, the package flew about 5 feet before landing. I was shocked and told her that I had written fragile on the box, she replied that I should have packed it better. Luckily the scope was tougher than those rough postal employees and it got to its destination fully functional.
 

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Now that we have links and info. from both UPS & FedEx, I think what George is asking is PERSONNAL accounts where a handgun was shipped by one or the other companies, gun was lost and said companies would NOT pay off on the insurance do to handgun NOT being shipped per thier instructions.
 

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I'd also like to hear any personal experiences about the process and time involved in settling a claim on a lost firearm that WAS sent according to FedEx and UPS regulations. In short, did they cowboy up or turn weasel?
 

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On the back of the FedEx form you fill out is the "Terms And Conditions."

The second paragraph is "Agreement To Terms." It states:
By giving us your package to deliver, you agree to all the terms on this Airbill and in our current Service Guide, which is available on request. You also agree to those terms on behalf of any third party with an interest in the package......

Under the "Limitations On Our Liability and Liabilites Not Assumed Section," it states:
We won't be liable"
-for your acts or omission, including but not limited to improper or insufficient packing, securing, marking, or addressing, or those of the recipient or anyone else with an interest in the package.
-if you or the recipient violates any of the terms of our Agreement
-for loss of, or damage to shipments of prohibited items.
.....
 

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If I'm not mistaken, this is in violation of federal laws. You are required to disclose contents, if it is a firearm, to third party shippers.
And your [sic] not allowed to drive over the speed limit.
Only if not shipping to a FFL or the manufacturer.

-- Chuck
 

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Chuck S said:
Only if not shipping to a FFL or the manufacturer.

-- Chuck
By not telling the carrier that the package contained a firearm, it appears he violated a Federal criminal statute.

Specifically:

18 U.S.C. section 922(e)

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm. See also 18 U.S.C. sections 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3) and 922(a)(5).

The cites to the law are right there. Check them if you want. They are also right in BATFE's FAQ section.

Guess no one is ever prosecuted for violating this law?

Guess again. A famous University of Maryland basketball star was recently prosecuted in Federal court for failing to tell FedEx that packages he mailed contained handguns (by the way, the handguns he sent FedEx were his own guns - he mailed them to himself - which is usually allowed - IF you inform Fed Ex that the box contains handguns).

BUT, I have a problem with FedEx' policy in that it does not comport with this law as far as the FedEx "policy" seeming to allow ORAL notice to FedEx at the time of shipping instead of the requisite written notice.

So, in sum: FedEx does not require written notice, but the LAW does.

Written means "in writing" I believe the law requires that I send, in writting and it can be through registered mail with PROOF of delivery to FedEx, a registered letter a day or two before I ship stating that I will be overnighting a handgun, and the FedEx form number I will be using is: " ". THAT would comply with the Federal law.

If I mail FedEx such a letter, I have complied 100% with the letter and the intent of with the law. Again, my mailed notice is in writing AND it is to the carrier (Fed Ex) - I even have PROOF that they recieved it if I use registered mail. That is my plan for staying out of Federal prison (as much as I like U of MD basketball, I won't be visiting that alum).

At a minimum, I'd suggest you at least inform FedEx at the time of shippment in accordance with their policy.
 

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TY44934 said:
...
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; .... See also 18 U.S.C. sections 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3) and 922(a)(5)...
Italics/underlined are mine. There clearly are exceptions for shipments to licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors. Now, do I want to risk a misunderstanding and all of the unwanted attention that would go with that? Hardly. But according to the above, no written notice is required.
 

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I know the BATF leaves out that part in their FAQ and I think they did in the corresponding CFR, which pretty well carries the force of law. Enough that you do not want to mess with them on it.
 

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I recently sent a pistol back to the manufacturer for repair via UPS. I had to tell them the make and model along with the value. The shipping charge was incredibly steep.
 

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I see BBBill has provided the specific code I referred to that it's perfectly legal to ship to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors without informing the carrier of the contents of the package in writing or even verbally.

Any notification to the carrier is their requirement (if any), not federal law.

-- Chuck
 

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I use USPS after working for UPS in school. throwing a package 5 feet one of the gentler things I saw done, falls from 15' were common, or a 69lb ( remember 70 is the cutoff, then it gets handled off the conveyors, MOST of the time) package come sliding down the chute onto what ever is already there. The place was like a giant steel chutes and ladders game, and its a damn wonder anything other than cast iron tractor weights made it through intact. Security sucked, minimum wage fellas that didnt really care. There was a metal detector that was rarely heeded. things tightened up a bit after homeland got some of their guys to just walk in with no ID. We sent trucks to the airport, so from then on you had to show the card to get in. The drivers you see are well paid and work hard for it, but the loaders in the hubs can be some of the most messed up people ever.

RalNC, Red belt, midnight shift for 8 months <---- worse than putting in tobacco, at least thats seasonal.
 

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George Smith said:
Hi All,

As we all know UPS and Fed ex rules dictate that we send our guns via there companies from customer to ffl and back. We also know it stems from the guns stolen by employees in Georgia. There is nothing federal about the laws BUT it is there sandbox.

Has anyone sent a gun via UPS or Fed Ex that was lost and the companies did not pay the insurance stating they would not insure because we did not abide by there rules?

We had a gun Missing, it turned up, but wile tracing it the UPS rep said it would not cover insurance as it was not sent next day air.

as an aside, does anyone have a link to the UPS and Fed Ex shipping rules?
this would be an asset to people sending guns to there favorite Gunsmith for work. People call every week stating they tried to send there gun and the person at the counter said they can not. The print out from there own site would be helpful.

best regards
geo

www.egw-guns.com
Here are the firearms regs, copied from the FedEx website.

http://forums.1911forum.com/Firearms


  1. FedEx Express will transport and deliver firearms as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S., but only between:
    1. Licensed importers; licensed manufacturers; licensed dealers; licensed collectors; law enforcement agencies of the U.S. or any department or agency thereof; and law enforcement agencies of any state or any department, agency or political subdivisions thereof; or
    2. Where not prohibited by local, state and federal law, from individuals to licensed importers, licensed manufacturers or licensed dealers (and return of same).
  2. If your shipment contains firearms, select the Direct Signature Required Delivery Signature Option or Adult Signature Required Delivery Signature Option, depending on the requirements of your shipment. See the Delivery Signature Options section for details. Firearms shipments are not eligible for signature release or indirect delivery.
  3. Firearms must be shipped via FedEx Priority Overnight service. FedEx Express cannot ship or deliver firearms C.O.D. Firearms shipments cannot be placed in a FedEx Express Drop Box.
  4. Upon presenting the package for shipment, the person tendering the shipment to FedEx Express is required to notify FedEx Express that the package contains a firearm. The outside of the package must not be marked, labeled or otherwise identify that the package contains a firearm.
  5. The shipper and recipient must be of legal age as identified by applicable law.
  6. The shipper and recipient are required to comply with all applicable government regulations and laws, including those pertaining to labeling. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives can provide assistance.
  7. FedEx Express will transport ammunition when packed and labeled in compliance with local, state and federal law, and the Dangerous Goods section of this Service Guide. Ammunition is an explosive and must be shipped separately as dangerous goods. You agree not to ship loaded firearms or firearms with ammunition in the same package.
One thing that I have seen some of lately is the shipper, both UPS and FedEx, asking for a copy of my FFL before they'll accept the customer's gun (who is shipping to me). Also, the local UPS shipping center required me to give them a copy to keep on file at their location for my outbound shipments that I was dropping off.
FedEx has not asked for a license, but I've quit telling them what is in the box. I know, I'm supposed to tell, but I've never seen anyone do anything after being told. They just throw it on the pile and move on to the next customer. I also always have my packages completely ready with a shipping label processed from FedEx's web site attached. Very little to discuss then.
 
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