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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ref: Civilian Marksmanship Program - Promoting firearms safety training!

By my count, that makes four Colt 1937 production pistols that were issued to the USS North Carolina battleship that have turned up at the CMP Auction. I am still trying to figure out how US Navy inventory pistols were transferred to US Army property books...? (Which is where the CMP inventory derived). When and where did it occur?

Also, I count thus far eleven 1937 production pistols sold at CMP Auction (also, a 1938 and a number of 1939s plus a few early 1940s).

(The pistols documented to the USS North Carolina from the CMP Auction, thus far: S/n's 711507, 711537, 711543, 712001).
 

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ANAD is where US military stores decommissioned small arms. Also where Captain Crunch is located. Once small arms become unserviceable and/or obsolete, they are destroyed there. Thank God some of these workhorse 1911 survived.
 

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I received an Ithaca framed mixmaster that as near as I can tell was rebuilt at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane in the 1988-89 timeframe. There are no arsenal marks on the gun. The original gun was sent to Naval Depot Norfolk in August of 1944. I sent in a FOIA to the Army and the first appearance of the gun in their records is Feb 1999 where it was transferred from the Anniston Munitions Center to Army General Supply (also at Anniston) where it resided until 2018 when it was transferred to the CMP. I don't know if the 1999 transfer was Navy to Army or if the Anniston Munitions Center had held the gun from some time earlier. The records do not say. I do know that after the refurbishment, the gun was virtually as new with a new barrel, slide and small parts. Where ever the original gun was in the fleet, it looks to have seen no use as the frame is pristine. It seems to have been disassembled and reconstructed with new, updated, parts. Nice shooter quality gun.
 

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care to elaborate how a 1937 production 1911 pistol from your pic, looks like a 1911A1 ?
 

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No elaboration necessary. It is an M1911A1. Colt and the government began shipping "improved models" in 1924. A few years later the Army designated the pistols as M1911A1. There were several changes made from the 1911 to the 1911A1. As i recall they were:
1...grip safety tang extended
2...front sight width changed
3...MSH raised and knurled
4...finger clearance cuts behind the trigger
5...Face of trigger changed.
I don't have my reference books available given I am away from home but I think I covered most of the changes. I think the side stop was redesigned then too. The real smart will comment and add additional facts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
No elaboration necessary. It is an M1911A1. Colt and the government began shipping "improved models" in 1924. A few years later the Army designated the pistols as M1911A1. There were several changes made from the 1911 to the 1911A1. As i recall they were:
1...grip safety tang extended
2...front sight width changed
3...MSH raised and knurled
4...finger clearance cuts behind the trigger
5...Face of trigger changed.
I don't have my reference books available given I am away from home but I think I covered most of the changes. I think the side stop was redesigned then too. The real smart will comment and add additional facts.
Correct, Filson. And to elaborate further, (per Poyer 2cd Ed. page 41-42) "June 1926 Ordnance Dept directed all pistols below Serial Number 700,000 be designated "M1911" and all pistols starting at 700,001 be designated "M1911A1" pistols. However, all 1924 and 1937 production models were marked on the slide "MODEL of 1911 U.S. ARMY" At serial number 712,350 for production in 1938 to the end of production in 1945, the model designation was to be applied to the right side of the receiver (pg 326; the exception are replacement slides from 1938 to 1943 which have the "U.S. MODEL 1911 A1 U.S. ARMY" stamped on the right side).
Drawings however were not approved showing the new designation until January 27th 1938: frames thereafter were now stamped on the right side “M1911A1 U.S. ARMY” (pg. 275).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I received an Ithaca framed mixmaster that as near as I can tell was rebuilt at the Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane in the 1988-89 timeframe. There are no arsenal marks on the gun. The original gun was sent to Naval Depot Norfolk in August of 1944. I sent in a FOIA to the Army and the first appearance of the gun in their records is Feb 1999 where it was transferred from the Anniston Munitions Center to Army General Supply (also at Anniston) where it resided until 2018 when it was transferred to the CMP. I don't know if the 1999 transfer was Navy to Army or if the Anniston Munitions Center had held the gun from some time earlier. The records do not say. I do know that after the refurbishment, the gun was virtually as new with a new barrel, slide and small parts. Where ever the original gun was in the fleet, it looks to have seen no use as the frame is pristine. It seems to have been disassembled and reconstructed with new, updated, parts. Nice shooter quality gun.
That is really interesting! May I ask how you are able to determine your pistol was worked on at Crane? How do you go about doing a FOIA for a pistol? That makes me wonder if I should inquire about my CMP 1937 production...? It would be nice to find out if there is any more history available for it.
 

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That is really interesting! May I ask how you are able to determine your pistol was worked on at Crane? How do you go about doing a FOIA for a pistol? That makes me wonder if I should inquire about my CMP 1937 production...? It would be nice to find out if there is any more history available for it.
I doubt your pistol would come back with any info other than it entering army inventory, where from probably from the Navy, and they probably stricken the old records from the books.

I believe I have had 2 FOIA requests by this gentleman


Please find attached a response to your FOIA request.

Thank you,

James Basta
Information System Security Officer
USAMC Logistics Data Analysis Center (LDAC)
Security+, CISM
[email protected]
Comm: 256-313-0309
DSN: 897-0309
 

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I doubt your pistol would come back with any info other than it entering army inventory, where from probably from the Navy, and they probably stricken the old records from the books.

I believe I have had 2 FOIA requests by this gentleman


Please find attached a response to your FOIA request.

Thank you,

James Basta
Information System Security Officer
USAMC Logistics Data Analysis Center (LDAC)
Security+, CISM
[email protected]
Comm: 256-313-0309
DSN: 897-0309
 

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That is really interesting! May I ask how you are able to determine your pistol was worked on at Crane? How do you go about doing a FOIA for a pistol? That makes me wonder if I should inquire about my CMP 1937 production...? It would be nice to find out if there is any more history available for it.
It is a little bit of a guess. I know the pistol was sent to the Atlantic fleet in 1944 so we know that it is a Navy gun. The condition of the frame indicates it didn't make it's way to the Marines and was likely stuck in an armory somewhere. There are no arsenal markings on it so that means it never went through the common ones we all know about. I did a bunch of digging through various boards and ran across a couple of postings by guys who had worked at Crane in 1988-89 as armorers refurbing 1911s. They noted the influx of 1911s coming in for refurb at that time. It made sense as the M9 had been adopted and was about to be implemented in 1990. The IMI barrel has an '85 date on it and the slide is a contract slide. Everything taken together points to the rehab happening at Crane about that time. Nothing definitive, but taken as a whole, it looks like the gun was likely moved from where ever it resided in the fleet to Crane where it was disassembled and updated with new parts before being put into storage. When it was transferred to Army is anyone's guess. We just know it was at Anniston in 1999.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It is a little bit of a guess. I know the pistol was sent to the Atlantic fleet in 1944 so we know that it is a Navy gun. The condition of the frame indicates it didn't make it's way to the Marines and was likely stuck in an armory somewhere. There are no arsenal markings on it so that means it never went through the common ones we all know about. I did a bunch of digging through various boards and ran across a couple of postings by guys who had worked at Crane in 1988-89 as armorers refurbing 1911s. They noted the influx of 1911s coming in for refurb at that time. It made sense as the M9 had been adopted and was about to be implemented in 1990. The IMI barrel has an '85 date on it and the slide is a contract slide. Everything taken together points to the rehab happening at Crane about that time. Nothing definitive, but taken as a whole, it looks like the gun was likely moved from where ever it resided in the fleet to Crane where it was disassembled and updated with new parts before being put into storage. When it was transferred to Army is anyone's guess. We just know it was at Anniston in 1999.
Good to know! I checked out a few threads on CMP Forum about "FOIA" and several pistols came back with a fairly detailed history list albeit usually dating only to more recent years/decades. But better than nothing. I think its worth a shot to see if mine could have a bit of a paper trail...
Off subject: a few years back, I recall a representative from Crane came to our unit with enthusiasm about the new SCAR rifles (Light and Heavy; ie, 5.556 and 7.62) - they seemed to be promoting the systems. We had alot of detailed questions as well as comments. In particular, what was field testing revealing? Moreover, who was doing it and what exactly were the parameters? The rep said there were "alot of great things" about them...but under questioning, it appeared to us that rigorous field tests of the type we expected was not and/or had not yet been accomplished (or they couldnt say one way or the other). Bottom line: we didnt think they were ready for prime-time yet; & we told him to his face - which seemed to hurt his feelings about the matter-which may have revealed he was too emotionally attached to the matter instead of being an impartial party; after all, folks who have to use these weapons for the real deal dont exactly want to take somebody else's word for it that they "are good to go"...especially when it appears they might not have worked out all the bugs yet...). One of his comments was essentially that the rifles "must be good" because the SEALs tested them out and concluded thus; well, that merely produced alot of sarcastic snickers...
We had a few sections check them out and put 'em thru the ringer and we ended up declining the SCAR Light version (no major advantage over an M4) and accepted the SCAR Heavy. Neither type, however, was indeed up to par at that point and we pointed out numerous glitches and fixes that were sorely needed before fielding to a combat deployable unit; plus some of the other pro's/con's (such as the ridorkuous proprietary magazine necessary for the SCAR Heavy...which obviously should have been conformed to take the already existing SR25/M110 mags - duh!). Lesson learned is never take anything at face value and do your own homework.
 

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That is really interesting! May I ask how you are able to determine your pistol was worked on at Crane? How do you go about doing a FOIA for a pistol? That makes me wonder if I should inquire about my CMP 1937 production...? It would be nice to find out if there is any more history available for it.
Crane is where 99% of Navy small arms go for R&R. From Crane , they go to Anniston for storage , or (gulp!) destruction :cry:.

demils.jpg
 

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(The pistols documented to the USS North Carolina from the CMP Auction, thus far: S/n's 711507, 711537, 711543, 712001).
It would be thrilling to own one of those, even if you’re not from NC.

One the USA’s most historic pistols from the most decorated warship in WWII history. For me, it wouldn’t get any better than that.
609906


609907


I purchased a piece of NC’s teak deck 8 years ago. Had a few sets of 1911 grips made, gave two pair away and kept one for myself.
609905


609904


609903
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Those sure are some neat grips! I recently visited the Showboat and was impressed as always - might have toured around 50+ times by now and I always learn something new. A great uncle served on USS Alabama BB-60 so that might be another reason I got a thing for battleships.
Some years back, IIRC another forum member (or another forum?) posted he had the slide to another USS NC pistol: S/n 711699...just a jump away from the one that just sold at CMP!
 

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Well it looks like 712001 is back up for auction again. Last sale must have fallen through- illegitimate buyer, or buyer didn't pay for the item, etc.


Same with the early 1939 713670:

 
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