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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey all. These are out of a govt Wilson cqb. 230gr gold dots, over 7.1 n350, CCI lp, star line +p. The accuracy is acceptable, but should I try for a faster round? I’m not at the top of the load charge yet. I carry these for my sd rounds. Thanks.



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The accuracy is acceptable, but should I try for a faster round?
I would not. I previously asked about the optimum velocities in 230gr. Gold Dots, here was the reply:
Standard Gold Dots would be 850-950 fps. The Short Barrel bullets have a slightly thinner plating to increase expansion at lower velocities.

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I would tailor for accuracy now.

Better to have a controllable and accurate round in the window than something hotter that diminishes your ability to put multiple rounds on target, fast. Also, too much velocity can actually decrease effectiveness of HP's.
 

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I would not. I previously asked about the optimum velocities in 230gr. Gold Dots, here was the reply:
Standard Gold Dots would be 850-950 fps. The Short Barrel bullets have a slightly thinner plating to increase expansion at lower velocities.

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Lewiston, ID 83501
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I would tailor for accuracy now.

Better to have a controllable and accurate round in the window than something hotter that diminishes your ability to put multiple rounds on target, fast. Also, too much velocity can actually decrease effectiveness of HP's.
I agree with this completely. Find something accurate and fully manageable within the window of the particular bullet's design range, and go with that. Just an opinion though, my own.
 

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FWIW, that is fast for 230 grain round. Typically, 830-890 fps is the window for 230 grain.

I shot pins for years. The last half of that when using 230 grain ball was with 895 fps loads. That was on the edge of fast shooting loads. I am not a manly manly man but I am no slouch either if that helps put power/shootability into perspective.
 
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932 with a 230 gr slug is pretty fast. Factory spec is 890 for standard GD ammo.
Factory mil ball only does around 830.
If it were me, I would reduce the speed to around 890, then run a few hundred to see if it is a reliable feeder before trusting it as a carry load.
Looking at the VV website and your test data, 6.8 would theoretically bring the speed more in line with factory spec. (890)

One of the problems that I encountered with pushing heavy bullets too fast in the 1911 platform was reliable function.
The gun would need to be sprung appropriately, and the shooter would need to be able to hang on tight enough to prevent limp-wrist type malfunctions.
With hollow point ammo, your magazines would need to be vetted too.
 

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Flechero, oldfut, and Cave have pretty much nailed it. You are already in the +P range. I do not think that you are going to gain much from going hotter. 31 FPS is not that bad of an extreme spread on speed, but I would try to tighten it up a little more.
 

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I second the above opinions. Your loads are "acceptably accurate" and are at the top end of the recommended range for your bullet. IMO, run some test loads laddered down a couple tenths to see if the acceptable accuracy becomes outstanding accuracy. A 230 grain Gold Dot traveling 875-900 fps will change the mind of any foolish thug. Unless you live in Rhino country or have Brown Bears roaming your neighborhood, you will not need any more.

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As a silly sidenote.......just imagine the glee on a prosecutor's face when they discover you load your own self-defense ammo and load it to hotter velocity than the bullet maker's prescribed range.

Not all of them will be as offensive and ignorant as the puke in the Rittenhouse trial.

A sharp prosecutor and absence of video proof of your innocence and it's a scary situation.


Sad considerations in the mode era.
 

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Perhaps a small consideration but a SD load has other considerations, like muzzle flash. I think a higher-pressure load using a slower powder might be the recipe for a humungous fireball.
 

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Perhaps a small consideration but a SD load has other considerations, like muzzle flash. I think a higher-pressure load using a slower powder might be the recipe for a humungous fireball.
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This is true. Muzzle flash could be a concern.
Since the idea in this case is to create a self-defense round, the OP should really test for reliability.
Honestly, if I were trying to create a self-defense round, I would try to match it up to a known factory SD round.
Kind of like how I did in the "Speer Gold-Dot 2021" project.

I would load a few hundred and try them out before trusting my life to it. Try it left-handed (weak-handed) too.
Strong recoil can create malfunctions.
If you dissect a premium factory round I'll betcha you'll find a sealer around the bullet.
They did that for a reason.
 

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I never cracked 900 fps with the 230 grain bullet weight in handloaded .45 ACP, but then I never tried all that hard. Best I managed was 895 fps over the chronograph screens for a 10 shot average by using 7.2 grains of Unique which was the listed maximum as published in Lyman reloading manuals for several editions in the early 1970s.

Got to pondering this and determined that anything whacked with 230 grains of .45 caliber goodness wasn't gonna care much if velocity was 895 feet per second or the the 835 feet per second achieved by my normal handload.
 

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============
This is true. Muzzle flash could be a concern.
Since the idea in this case is to create a self-defense round, the OP should really test for reliability.
Honestly, if I were trying to create a self-defense round, I would try to match it up to a known factory SD round.
Kind of like how I did in the "Speer Gold-Dot 2021" project.

I would load a few hundred and try them out before trusting my life to it. Try it left-handed (weak-handed) too.
Strong recoil can create malfunctions.
If you dissect a premium factory round I'll betcha you'll find a sealer around the bullet.
They did that for a reason.
For practice or general shooting I would replicate the factory load. For actual carry, I use factory ammunition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have shot this load, I know this load functions, I know this load is accurate, I know my guns run this load fine, I know my magazines handle it. None of that was the issue, I just wanted to know if I should try to get a little more speed and be able to stay in the envelope for proper expansion. From the sounds of it, I’m there.


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As a silly sidenote.......just imagine the glee on a prosecutor's face when they discover you load your own self-defense ammo and load it to hotter velocity than the bullet maker's prescribed range.
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A prosecutor will have access to all your social media postings. If you frequent a site like 1911 and shoot someone with a 1911, then obviously you are eaten up with that style of weapon and some type of gun nut. .

If you truly had some illegal bullet or something like loaded with those little flechettes it might be problem. You will recall they asked Kyle a lot of questions about bullets and the AR He was totally ignorant about bullets.. H e
said that hollow points were for shooting people, and that full metal jackets were for hunting. He knew how to work the gun well, he just did not know the details like we do. When asked about the bullets, he said bullets are just bullets. Meaning all bullets do the same function. It was a good answer for his case. I suggest it would be a good answer for any of us.

The simple truth is that Patrick Sherrel Postal , the shooter in Edmond Oklahoma, killed his 14 victims with two 1911s loaded with his National Guard training ammo. He was shooting wad cutters loaded to about 700 fps. I do not recall the bullet weight but think they were 200 grain. I had discussed that with him long before he became the guy termed the word, "going postal". They were reloads. Point is it does not take much for a 45 to do what it needs to do to humans. I had the occasion to meet Mr Sherill on an unrelated matter about 6 months before and in fact discussed his shooting with him. Much later, I was standing a block away from the Edmond Post office as he killed all those people. One of the dead was the wife of a guy that worked for me. We stood there and watched as the local police stormed the building.

Since that time, I spent many years in law enforcement and the military where I carried a 45 every day. I carried a 1911 in harms way in both the CONUS and elsewhere. many days and many miles.

I am a big fan of Mas Ayoob, we started out careers about the same time. However, I do not agree that reloaded ammo is going to cause problems in the courtroom, there are far worse things to do. Having a skull and cross bones on your face or a neck tattoo are sure bias a jury. How about your 1911 grips on your carry gun, same deal, sends the message.

How about social media posts, they tried to nail Kyle on that post where he said he wished he had his AR on a prior occasion when he saw looting on TV.

Just a simply post or two on this site saying you would blow people away who did this or that could show a pre=disposition to murder some one.

Anyway, my position is that whether a bullet goes 850 ot 950 out of the gun it is simply not a big deal. Any defense lawyer could defeat that. If you were to testify simply that it was the most accurate load that went where it was supposed to instead of off to one side, that would explain any questions.

The other risk many say is modified guns. If the manufacturer puts an 8 pound trigger on an AR and you replace it with a hair trigger say a 3 pound one, then you have made the gun more easy to fire and kill people right? Or if you put one of those dot signts on your 1911 and then shoot someone in the head, would the prosecutor not say that you put that special sight on the gun so you could shoot people in the head instead of just stopping them by shooting them in the leg, and of course with such a tool like a dot site, if you could shoot a man in the head, then you could easily have just shot him in the leg to stop him.

Anyway, you get the idea. Do not say dumb stuff on the forums and do not put skull son your carry gun and do not worry about some invisible maybe prosecutor.

Anyway I keep seeing that statement without real examples of how it actually mattered in a real court room. If you know of actual cases where reloads made any difference I would appreciate knowing about them.

My 2 cents.
 

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Don’t forget your using a +P case.
That means you will hit Pmax before the recipe max load from the manuals standard case.
My Speer #15 manual shows 7.1 gr VV350 is max charge at COL 1.200”.
You have your best MV now and are probably slightly over SAAMI max pressure in those reduced internal volume +P cases if your at a the Speer COL.

When you do a powder position sensitivity test you’ll probably freak at the recorded MV with the powder banked up at the flash hole.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
As a silly sidenote.......just imagine the glee on a prosecutor's face when they discover you load your own self-defense ammo and load it to hotter velocity than the bullet maker's prescribed range.

Not all of them will be as offensive and ignorant as the puke in the Rittenhouse trial.

A sharp prosecutor and absence of video proof of your innocence and it's a scary situation.


Sad considerations in the mode era.
Please site one case where hand loads were brought up and were the cause of someone involved in a sd defense shooting going to jail where he would have been let off if it weren’t for the handloads. I will wait…………







Hint: you wont find one. This myth that using handloads for a sd carry round is ridiculous. It has been repeated ad nauseam to the point that people believe it when their is no proof of it, in any case. Please stop repeating this myth.


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