Nothing personal to Mr Vickers or Mr Heinie but all this reverence and suckin up is wearing me out. This forum needs a snob section to conduct its debutante balls. Oh yah most of us are ordinary folks can't afford a divine pistol. So yes please start a snob section the other 1800 and some odd members can avoid.
Vickers Kimber - Part 2
Carry over from - http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000942.html
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Okay, I've to admit it, Ocie....I'm laughing pretty hard. But, to set the record straight, I don't know anything about Mr. Vickers other than his stellar gunbuilding reputation. Richard Heinie, on the other hand, has helped many a 1911 owner without ever once, that I'm aware of, advertising his shop, products or guns. He is the reason I joined this forum in the early days. He was the 1911 moderator at Gunspot. (I believe it was Gunspot....or was it Firing Line....I don't know--I haven't gone back since finding this silly place in March 2000!) Anyhow, I think he does it because he likes 1911s like you and me, and I'd venture to guess he also does it because he's repaying a group of customers who have made him commercially very successful.
In the past couple of weeks, we've seen a few high profile 'smiths come on this site, and we should be happy that's happening. That being said, some of them don't want to offer the reciprocity (i.e., give advice to those of us who need it badly in return for a little subliminal advertising) that has made the 'smithing board successful. Bilby did it, Burns does it and Clark--like him or not--did it. Dane is really doing most of the heavy lifting all by himself now in terms of the giving of solid, experience-backed advice, so I applaud him for reaching out to the APG and other notables to gain their involvement. (Remember, Heinie was one of the first to work alongside Dane on the Bilby project.)
So, although I'm on the record (does anyone recall the free holster giveaway brouhaha?) as saying that I don't want this forum to become a billboard for people who want to hawk their wares, I don't mind people proudly showing off some of their work if they act as a true member of this bulletin board.
In the past couple of weeks, we've seen a few high profile 'smiths come on this site, and we should be happy that's happening. That being said, some of them don't want to offer the reciprocity (i.e., give advice to those of us who need it badly in return for a little subliminal advertising) that has made the 'smithing board successful. Bilby did it, Burns does it and Clark--like him or not--did it. Dane is really doing most of the heavy lifting all by himself now in terms of the giving of solid, experience-backed advice, so I applaud him for reaching out to the APG and other notables to gain their involvement. (Remember, Heinie was one of the first to work alongside Dane on the Bilby project.)
So, although I'm on the record (does anyone recall the free holster giveaway brouhaha?) as saying that I don't want this forum to become a billboard for people who want to hawk their wares, I don't mind people proudly showing off some of their work if they act as a true member of this bulletin board.
I can't afford a high dollar pistol either. That doesn't mean I don't want to be exposed to the information about them or the people who own them or make them. Ociebell, you don't know me and I doubt you know all the other 1800 members of this forum. So please don't try to speak for me. How 'bout we start a sour grapes section for Ociebell?
[This message has been edited by Marbo (edited 01-25-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Marbo (edited 01-25-2001).]
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1,142 Posts
Out of curiosity, IF the price were the same, would you guys rather have a Vickers/Heine/Burns creation or a stock out of the box factory piece? Don't begrudge those of us who can afford and choose to buy the best. It's nothing personal. If you don't see value in a full custom, don't buy it. If you want want one but can't afford it, sorry but life isn't fair, get over it or vote Democratic where whining is appreciated.
Well, everyone is entitled to an opinion, and here is mine:
For the cost of 3 Glocks, 2 Colts, and an odd revolver or 2, you can own 1 fine custom 1911 with leather, mags, and ammo. For the cost of a safe full of pistols, rifles, shotguns and junk carbines [most of which never get shot], you can own a custom 1911, a 'smithed carbine, and a custom rifle...and know how to use them. It is all in deciding what *you* want.
A guy here locally gets out to shoot every once in awhile, and constantly rags the guys he knows who carry custom pistols...while at the same time trying out all the latest gadgets on his polymer stuff. Whines about not being able to afford such stuff because "he has to work for a living", and how soon we will all be shooting plates down at the country club. He is not a bad guy, just an annoying guy. Says all of this while smoking a pack a day, eating out at various places 4 nights a week, etc. Do the math, he smokes and eats my custom pistol cost every year. Now, don't misunderstand me, he is welcome to smoke his ass off and eat wherever he wants, as that is his *choice*. Just understand that it is a *choice*, and that some of us are making a different choice.
Usually, talk of "wish I could afford it" is just a person operating with a different priority...or someone who is pissed at the choices they have made.
Now, go grab the day!
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For the cost of 3 Glocks, 2 Colts, and an odd revolver or 2, you can own 1 fine custom 1911 with leather, mags, and ammo. For the cost of a safe full of pistols, rifles, shotguns and junk carbines [most of which never get shot], you can own a custom 1911, a 'smithed carbine, and a custom rifle...and know how to use them. It is all in deciding what *you* want.
A guy here locally gets out to shoot every once in awhile, and constantly rags the guys he knows who carry custom pistols...while at the same time trying out all the latest gadgets on his polymer stuff. Whines about not being able to afford such stuff because "he has to work for a living", and how soon we will all be shooting plates down at the country club. He is not a bad guy, just an annoying guy. Says all of this while smoking a pack a day, eating out at various places 4 nights a week, etc. Do the math, he smokes and eats my custom pistol cost every year. Now, don't misunderstand me, he is welcome to smoke his ass off and eat wherever he wants, as that is his *choice*. Just understand that it is a *choice*, and that some of us are making a different choice.
Usually, talk of "wish I could afford it" is just a person operating with a different priority...or someone who is pissed at the choices they have made.
Now, go grab the day!
G
Guest
·Ocie,
Nothing personal, but sometimes you are as subtle as a train wreck. You are a perfect example of someone who just doesn't get *it*. Go back and re-read my Time, Money & Custom 1911s thread.
I am really embarrased for ya man. There is a huge difference between respect, or even admiration, and blatant ass kissing. Obviously, you have little respect for two of the greatest living 1911 pistolsmiths.
Why are you surprised they would get such a heroes welcome -- in a forum devoted to 1911 custom gunsmithing? Why be such a wet blanket? Why presume you speak for 1800 other members? Jealousy does not become you Ocie.
I really liked Marbo's idea. With all your sour grapes Ocie, I think you would be the perfect Moderator for the (proposed) new Vinegar Forum.
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DD
[This message has been edited by Desert Dog (edited 01-25-2001).]
Nothing personal, but sometimes you are as subtle as a train wreck. You are a perfect example of someone who just doesn't get *it*. Go back and re-read my Time, Money & Custom 1911s thread.
I am really embarrased for ya man. There is a huge difference between respect, or even admiration, and blatant ass kissing. Obviously, you have little respect for two of the greatest living 1911 pistolsmiths.
Why are you surprised they would get such a heroes welcome -- in a forum devoted to 1911 custom gunsmithing? Why be such a wet blanket? Why presume you speak for 1800 other members? Jealousy does not become you Ocie.
I really liked Marbo's idea. With all your sour grapes Ocie, I think you would be the perfect Moderator for the (proposed) new Vinegar Forum.
DD
[This message has been edited by Desert Dog (edited 01-25-2001).]
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2,649 Posts
Amen, Bruce. I doubt that many of us are so strapped that it is a struggle just to provide the basic necessities of life. If we're fortunate enough to have a little discretionary loot, then it all boils down to choices. A full-house 1911 from a reputable maker might seem expensive, but so is a boat, a new car, a good hi-fi system, nice suits, and so forth. I've seen plenty of tar-paper shacks with a $30K 4x4 truck sitting out front and a bass boat in the side yard. It wouldn't be my choice, but who am I to belittle that man's priorities.
As to the post regarding "sucking up" and a "snob section"; it is sad and embarrassing to see this sort of thing among what ought to be a fraternity of shooters. I'm glad that Richard Heinie and Larry Vickers have decided to participate here and I posted as much. If that makes me a "suck up" then so be it. We're fortunate to have both of these men, who are at the top of their field, participating.
Rosco
As to the post regarding "sucking up" and a "snob section"; it is sad and embarrassing to see this sort of thing among what ought to be a fraternity of shooters. I'm glad that Richard Heinie and Larry Vickers have decided to participate here and I posted as much. If that makes me a "suck up" then so be it. We're fortunate to have both of these men, who are at the top of their field, participating.
Rosco
Amen Roscoe...
I think the members here, in general, and as a whole feel the same... We are indeed lucky to have many prominent names in our ranks here... and might I add, the name "Roscoe Benson" to that list.
I know many have followed Roscoe's writings in many of the Rag's, and speaking from my own personal perspective, Roscoe has always been a font of information, with the ability to speak his mind, in an honest, and straightforward manner.
I sincerely feel we are very fortunate to have the wealth of knowledge available as a direct result of the presence of these Professional's. There's plenty more lurking about...
We are very fortunate that these Gentlemen have taken the time to share their thoughts with us, as we all know that the time they spend is very valuable, and they could certainly spend it doing other things. This board has grown into one of the best due to the participation of these knowledgeable professionals, and we are indeed, blessed.
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I think the members here, in general, and as a whole feel the same... We are indeed lucky to have many prominent names in our ranks here... and might I add, the name "Roscoe Benson" to that list.
I know many have followed Roscoe's writings in many of the Rag's, and speaking from my own personal perspective, Roscoe has always been a font of information, with the ability to speak his mind, in an honest, and straightforward manner.
I sincerely feel we are very fortunate to have the wealth of knowledge available as a direct result of the presence of these Professional's. There's plenty more lurking about...
We are very fortunate that these Gentlemen have taken the time to share their thoughts with us, as we all know that the time they spend is very valuable, and they could certainly spend it doing other things. This board has grown into one of the best due to the participation of these knowledgeable professionals, and we are indeed, blessed.
FWIW... Ociebell, I am slightly offended. I am not a "suck-up", or a snob. I learned from serving time in the military that it's not a requirement.
If one does the job, they should be recognized for their work, and most of these guys definately "do their job" quite well, definately better than I could ever hope to achieve.
I would have little heart ache in recognizing "sub-standard" work also, and can be very vocal when required.
While you may disagree, it seems that slamming those that can enjoy the beauty of a rose, is probably someone who enjoys the thorns.
If one does the job, they should be recognized for their work, and most of these guys definately "do their job" quite well, definately better than I could ever hope to achieve.
I would have little heart ache in recognizing "sub-standard" work also, and can be very vocal when required.
While you may disagree, it seems that slamming those that can enjoy the beauty of a rose, is probably someone who enjoys the thorns.
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Jaydee is always too kind to me. I manage to get my ugly mug in some of the gun rags from time to time, but I leave it to may pal Rick Miller to do the writing. I consider myself a student of weaponcraft and nothing more. I enjoy participating on various online forums and I'm happy to share what little I've learned (this being the best way to honor the folks who were kind enough to teach me). I've "gotten" more from participating than I could ever give and thus I tend to value these online forums greatly. That's one of the reasons that having acknowledged master artisans like Heinie and Vickers come on board is such a benefit to all of us.
Rosco
Rosco
To assume that owners of the fine guns built my Vickers, Heinie, Burns etc... are "rich" or "snobs" is absurd to put it kindly.
I wont get into a bunch of detail, but lets say i do without alot to afford a gun that SATISFIES my taste and needs.
If all the "reverance" is wearing you out, dont read it.
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" You should not copy others, but use weapons which you can handle properly" Ibid
http://www.lameyknives.com
I wont get into a bunch of detail, but lets say i do without alot to afford a gun that SATISFIES my taste and needs.
If all the "reverance" is wearing you out, dont read it.
------------------
" You should not copy others, but use weapons which you can handle properly" Ibid
http://www.lameyknives.com
Joined
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129 Posts
Well said Matt!
About my Bowie Knife........
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Will Fennell
www.camillusknives.com
About my Bowie Knife........
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Will Fennell
www.camillusknives.com
Desert Dog,
Sorry your embarrased for whatever "it" is that I don't get. I'm not. Must be cause I don't get "it" Are you still mad over being called a syNcophant? I thought ya said we were even ole buddy. I only recently bought a gun I didn't build myself and everyone I build is better than the last so I think I do get at least some of "it"
Sorry for my revulsion to asskissers. Maybe I'm a latent asskisser who suppresses it with disrespect.
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As I said before, I have nothing personal for the new aces that have joined and I look forward to hearing real facts and less BS.
Jaydee,
Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I suppose the le enfant provacateur in me needed some negative attention. I'll try not to be a common lout if you'll try not to be a snob.
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Locksteppers,
Please don't succumb to mob hatred it may not be real.
Sorry your embarrased for whatever "it" is that I don't get. I'm not. Must be cause I don't get "it" Are you still mad over being called a syNcophant? I thought ya said we were even ole buddy. I only recently bought a gun I didn't build myself and everyone I build is better than the last so I think I do get at least some of "it"
Sorry for my revulsion to asskissers. Maybe I'm a latent asskisser who suppresses it with disrespect.
Jaydee,
Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I suppose the le enfant provacateur in me needed some negative attention. I'll try not to be a common lout if you'll try not to be a snob.
Locksteppers,
Please don't succumb to mob hatred it may not be real.
Ocie, i dont feel that stating the quality of a certain makers work is "a**kissing". It is merely stating fact in an attempt to try and seperate the true craftsman from the average "hack".
The internet has presented us with a great tool to spread the word, good or bad about gunsmiths in general. If we praise a particular makers work in a way that is kind or flattering to him, then what problem with that should you or anyone else have? As i said earlier, simply dont read it if it bothers you.
With the abundance of "drop" in parts and dremel tools out there, the number of hacks is growing. I for one appreciate the praise we see directed at certain 'smiths, I also appreciate the truth about those that are less than fine craftsman.
This saves us much time, headache and money in the long run.
------------------
" You should not copy others, but use weapons which you can handle properly" Ibid
http://www.lameyknives.com
The internet has presented us with a great tool to spread the word, good or bad about gunsmiths in general. If we praise a particular makers work in a way that is kind or flattering to him, then what problem with that should you or anyone else have? As i said earlier, simply dont read it if it bothers you.
With the abundance of "drop" in parts and dremel tools out there, the number of hacks is growing. I for one appreciate the praise we see directed at certain 'smiths, I also appreciate the truth about those that are less than fine craftsman.
This saves us much time, headache and money in the long run.
------------------
" You should not copy others, but use weapons which you can handle properly" Ibid
http://www.lameyknives.com
Can't say my feelings were hurt... Snob??? I'll have you know that I keep my pinky down when I shoot my gun, thank you very muchOriginally posted by ociebell:
Jaydee, Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I suppose the le enfant provacateur in me needed some negative attention. I'll try not to be a common lout if you'll try not to be a snob.![]()
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