we had a talk today at work about the 1911 being dead in LEO work, thoughts?
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I think using a single stack anything for a duty weapon is not exhibiting very clear thinking. Yeah, most cops carry spare mags, but having to change a mag is something you hope you don't get to. Most good double stack mags in 9mm hold at least 15 rounds, with some holding 17 or 18. That's a lot of rounds to expend before you have to replenish the weapon with a mag change.
If you really want a 1911 duty weapon, look at the 2011 double stacks. I have an STI Guardian 2011 in 9mm. It holds 17 + 1 rounds and it accurate and reliable. I'd have no issue carrying that as a duty weapon.
If you really want a 1911 duty weapon, look at the 2011 double stacks. I have an STI Guardian 2011 in 9mm. It holds 17 + 1 rounds and it accurate and reliable. I'd have no issue carrying that as a duty weapon.
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Tell that to all of the SWAT agencies that seem to keep using it.
In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
In general, yeah, most are going to double stack capacity plastic pistols, but the ones who know how to shoot seem to stick with the 1911...at least some of them.
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I will use the same answer as always when the topic of capacity comes up. When you have patrolled the streets of Bed Stuy armed with a six shot .38 spl. revolver with dump pouches for reloads, a 1911 seems like a monster by comparison. Having survived 10 years in the NYPD carrying a revolver, I don't remember ever having to worry about being undergunned.
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Very Nice!
if those are original Wilson night sights from the 90s, I am assuming the tritium done left! :biglaugh:
Our department will not allow patrol to carry 1911s. When I was on patrol this did not seem fair. Striker fired, DA/SA only in 9mm or higher caliber. The main reason cited was capacity and that there are some that only shoot their weapons during qualifications, being better served with the above weapons.
CID and SWAT are allowed to carry 1911's if they attend a 1911 instructed course that includes placing emphasis on drawing the weapon and flipping the safety off and flipping the safety back on when holstering repeatedly. Of course proficiency must be proved.
CID and SWAT are allowed to carry 1911's if they attend a 1911 instructed course that includes placing emphasis on drawing the weapon and flipping the safety off and flipping the safety back on when holstering repeatedly. Of course proficiency must be proved.
High capacity pistols suddenly became "necessary" at the same time "spray and pray" became an acceptable standard. If the operator can't hit the target then we'll just give them more rounds and a put more magazines on their belt because that's easier and cheaper than requiring markmanship proficiency.
I think the reason the 1911 has a small percentage of users in law enforcement is because of a few reasons.
1. A decent 1911 cost 2-3 times more than a plastic striker fired pistol. Police agencies have limited funds and try to get the best/most they can with their limited funds.
2. The new (young) generation of cops mostly know plastic guns and have never fired a 1911.
3. A significant percentage of agencies only allow the officer to carry Dept owned guns, which are mostly plastic guns.
4. In the new era of active shooters (school shooters etc) cops want extra round capacity.
5. Plastic guns are lighter. 9mm ammo is lighter than 45 acp
6. 9mm ammo is cheaper than 45acp.
On a side note, my agency issues 9mm Glock. But we can carry our personally owned guns made by a reputable manufacturer, if approved by Dept Range Master, and we must we qualify with them prior to going into service.
I'm in Admin now and carry a Glock 9mm. However my patrol gun was a full-size 1911 carrying 8+1 in 45 acp.
I do not think that accuracy should ever go "out of style" in law enforcement. I have always been a proponent of using whatever firearm allowed the person to hit their target most often. I have never bought the "one size fits all" theory and as for trading ammo in a fight that theory has been debunked many times.
As I have been promoted I have been allowed to introduce polices and procedures that allowed a very liberal selection of firearms for duty use. The 1911 is one we use.
I carry one daily (and nightly some times) as I still get involved in daily police activities thanks to rock star Sergeants that work for me. I do not feel under gunned but as I have posted in this forum, I carry 10 round magazines when a uniform/swat capacity.
But... I have three Sig P320 X, striker fired guns that I have been shooting a lot. They are great guns and I shoot them very, very, well. We will see what the future brings for me. If I do change platforms it will be because I have thought out and it works best for my situation.
As I have been promoted I have been allowed to introduce polices and procedures that allowed a very liberal selection of firearms for duty use. The 1911 is one we use.
I carry one daily (and nightly some times) as I still get involved in daily police activities thanks to rock star Sergeants that work for me. I do not feel under gunned but as I have posted in this forum, I carry 10 round magazines when a uniform/swat capacity.
But... I have three Sig P320 X, striker fired guns that I have been shooting a lot. They are great guns and I shoot them very, very, well. We will see what the future brings for me. If I do change platforms it will be because I have thought out and it works best for my situation.
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LOL, yes the originals died a long time ago. I just installed these about a month ago. They work great and BTW, they are Meprolight.
When I was chief of my department, I made the policy that you could carry whatever as long as it was a major manufacturer and .38 or above. My logic was that you need to carry what you are comfortable with and can shoot well, as a hit with a .38 revolver beats a miss with a .45 or 9mm. We actually had one Gulf War vet who preferred to carry a S&W 65 and loaded it with 125 gr jhp. And he could shoot! We issue Glock .40 or .45's, but I have carried a 1911 in one form or another since the early 2000's. Just fits me better and I feel more confident with it. That being said, my back-up is a Glock 27 and I do carry 4 mags on the belt for my TRP.
And while it may just be cooincidental, I have noticed a quicker reaction to comply when I point my 1911 at them then when bad guys have a Glock pointed at them. But this may be as one guy put it, "When the man pointing a big gun at you is steady you'd better listen. If he's shaking he probably doesn't mean it". Just an observation....
And while it may just be cooincidental, I have noticed a quicker reaction to comply when I point my 1911 at them then when bad guys have a Glock pointed at them. But this may be as one guy put it, "When the man pointing a big gun at you is steady you'd better listen. If he's shaking he probably doesn't mean it". Just an observation....
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#1 - This is probably a big portion of it.
#2 - This can be overcome by good training, which relates back to #1
#3 - Again related to #1
#4 - No problem with this, other than marksmanship is still essential
#5 - Valid consideration for all day duty carry
#6 - Goes back to #1 again
As it should ALWAYS be, and I agree on the accuracy point. Good post.
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My department(s) issued guns and personal weapons were not allowed. I would have loved to have been able to carry a 1911, especially during my time as a major case detective.
When I first started in the department we only had one deputy that was a sharpshooter, the rest were experts and many of us were NRA Distinguished Experts. The NRA actually did a story on our department in the early 80’s because of that. Anyway, as time went on less and less new deputies were interested in firearms. I ran our firearms program and struggled to get people out to the range for open range days to just practice and have fun.
My rambling leads to my point that I would have been very uncomfortable to have many of our deputies carrying 1911’s. Most would not train and practice to the point needed to proficiently carry one on duty.
The days of most cops being gun guys is long gone, if it ever really was true. So the reason stated in previous posts are very good but realistically a Glock is a very good gun to issue to most law enforcement officers and a 1911 really is not.
There are many good LEO’s that still practice on their own time to maintain and gain skills but unfortunately it is not the majority.
I would not have felt disadvantaged carrying a 1911 with an 8 plus 1 capacity.
When I first started in the department we only had one deputy that was a sharpshooter, the rest were experts and many of us were NRA Distinguished Experts. The NRA actually did a story on our department in the early 80’s because of that. Anyway, as time went on less and less new deputies were interested in firearms. I ran our firearms program and struggled to get people out to the range for open range days to just practice and have fun.
My rambling leads to my point that I would have been very uncomfortable to have many of our deputies carrying 1911’s. Most would not train and practice to the point needed to proficiently carry one on duty.
The days of most cops being gun guys is long gone, if it ever really was true. So the reason stated in previous posts are very good but realistically a Glock is a very good gun to issue to most law enforcement officers and a 1911 really is not.
There are many good LEO’s that still practice on their own time to maintain and gain skills but unfortunately it is not the majority.
I would not have felt disadvantaged carrying a 1911 with an 8 plus 1 capacity.
Some guys still carry the 1911 on duty. I carry a TRP Operator. Another Sgt carries a Sign Scorpion.
The capacity argument is stale. The counter is that I can engage and hit a torso at 50 yards with my 1911. Maybe 50 yards will be as close as I can get to an active shooter. I can't make 50 yard hits with my Glocks.
Greater capacity is preferable for military engagements, when my platoon needs fire superiority to hose down another platoon. But for police work, precision is paramount and dominates capacity for a lone warrior engaging a lethal threat in a civilian environment.
I don't think I'm undergunned:
https://youtu.be/zYIsPPGotgU
The capacity argument is stale. The counter is that I can engage and hit a torso at 50 yards with my 1911. Maybe 50 yards will be as close as I can get to an active shooter. I can't make 50 yard hits with my Glocks.
Greater capacity is preferable for military engagements, when my platoon needs fire superiority to hose down another platoon. But for police work, precision is paramount and dominates capacity for a lone warrior engaging a lethal threat in a civilian environment.
I don't think I'm undergunned:
https://youtu.be/zYIsPPGotgU
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