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What Bullets Have Been Extracted From the Dead?

4K views 35 replies 14 participants last post by  FraudCop 
#1 ·
...what are they, and and how did they perform?

Screw the hypothetical gelatin and backyard water jug tests. Lets get down to the performance in the human body.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Certain doctors are out there doing this kind of post mortem work in police shootings. Just make sure to establish your sources bona fides to make sure you dont end up with some huckster who manufactures their data.

From what I have read written by a few such individuals (IWBA members etc.) the bullets that do well in denim covered gelatin tests do well on the street and vice versa.

I would agree with your screw water jugs statement. Its not scientific nor does it approximate real world conditions.
 
#3 ·
Having worked in Property & Evidence at our Sheriffs Dept for 3 years, I have seen first hand many bullets recovered from humans, and the reports to go with them. It has been my experience, that those rounds that do well in my backyard waterjug tests, are the same ones that I saw perform well in the human body. The only problem I have with Gelatin, is that it is a very consistant medium, and the human body is not. Thats not to say Gel tests arent a very important and valid testing tool. YMMV.
 
#5 ·
Hawkeye1 said:
Having worked in Property & Evidence at our Sheriffs Dept for 3 years, I have seen first hand many bullets recovered from humans, and the reports to go with them. It has been my experience, that those rounds that do well in my backyard waterjug tests, are the same ones that I saw perform well in the human body. The only problem I have with Gelatin, is that it is a very consistant medium, and the human body is not. Thats not to say Gel tests arent a very important and valid testing tool. YMMV.
Do you know what type/caliber/brand these extracted bullets are?
 
#6 ·
Gargoyle said:
Do you know what type/caliber/brand these extracted bullets are?
That is a hard one to answer. That was back in 94-97. I know there were some of the usual name brands. Our Dept was/is using 180 gr Ranger's. They did work very well in humans. I'll have to look back and see if I still have any of my notes that I was making then. Not sure if they got lost over the years or not.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Gargoyle

Check the latest issue of Handguns magazine. There is an article called "On patrol" on page 67 there is a picture of different bullets recovered from autopsy. Here is the quote of the picture:

Contrary to what many say, the 147-grain 9mm has performed weell in many police shootings. These 147-grain bullets, removed from autopsy, are, from left to rigth: Federal Hydra-Shok, Remington Golden SAbre, Winchester SXT, and Speer Gold Dot.

What I see from the picture is that the only bullet that shows questionable expansion is the Hydra-Shok. The other 3 expanded just like in the gelatin tests.
 
#11 ·
Re: Gargoyle

yucapote said:
What I see from the picture is that the only bullet that shows questionable expansion is the Hydra-Shok. The other 3 expanded just like in the gelatin tests.
I've heard the Hydra-Shoks are under scrutiny. Thanks yucapote! Do you know of any .45 pulled?
 
#13 · (Edited)
Gargoyle said:
Hows that post count going Mus? I don't think you have ever responded to one of my posts with anything worth a ****.
Actually I already answered a couple of your dumb questions you just didnt like the answers.

I already told you you can get reliable scientific information from the IWBA. I also told you that what I read from some of those people is that the bullets doing well in denim covered gelatin testing are those that are doing well in officer involved shootings.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Mus,

My fault, I must have been hypoglycemic and combative when I posted that last response. I apologize. It is not right to say all your responses aren't good, but sometimes I feel your responses are on the brink of "smartassedness."

BTW, Do you really think my questions are dumb or were you just pissed at me?
 
#15 ·
Gargoyle & Mus, why don't you two take it off-line?
 
#21 ·
Well I personally find MUS's posts to be very informative, indepth, and articulate. :)
 
#22 ·
I have seen many .40 Federal Tactical 165 gr. taken in autopsies. They have penetrated deeply, expanded well and caused massive internal damage when well placed. More anecdotally, most 230 gr..45 hollowpoints seem to do a very credible job, regardless of manufacturer. Saw a cross chest shot that wound up at the renowned Shock Trauma center in Baltimore. Un-named .45 HP that had the docs do the nearest thing to an autopsy on a live person I have ever seen. No avail, the wound was fatal, victim was dropped immediately and never regained consciousness. Most 9mm murders in Baltimore have suspects using cheap ball or Blazer and putting one in the 'cabbage' or multiple torso hits from a few feet away.
 
#23 ·
Gargoyle

You were not specific about caliber, but in 9mm San Diego County Sheriff’s Office, San Diego Police Department, California Highway Patrol, United States Navy SEALs (at least the west coast Teams) and the Drug Enforcement Administration issue and carry Winchester Ranger 147 gr. The Army’s non-existent Delta Detachment issues and carries Winchester 230gr Ranger ammunition. Unofficially I believe the score is 426 wins for the good guys and 9 losses to the bad guys over the past forty-four months. But I’m confused as to why someone in the Mercenary/Security field would ask this question in a public forum. I’m sure that those of you in these fields would be able to directly network with these organizations I mentioned and secure specific statistics relative these lethal force confrontations.

Should you wish to email me your verifiable credentials I would be more than happy to share my contacts and telephone numbers so that you can gain any additional specifics. SD ammunition is an especially important consideration to professionals and I compliment you for wanting accurate and verifiable data. I agree that the DRT stats are far more important than gelatin and water jug research.
 
#25 ·
Mus, the job title is in Gargoyle's profile.

What type of credentials do mercenaries have? Mercenary credentials, of course! :)

I too find the query a little odd. I guess I would have figured that somebody in the business would have some insider information on such things. Maybe not. I certainly would have expected that a person in the field would know that bullets are routinely pulled from the dead during autopsy as part of criminal investigations, on a daily basis.

As for where to get reliable data from these doctors, those working on living or dead individuals, there isn't a database. First of all, that concept that 'reliable' is pushing it. You will need a set of criteria on which to determine if the data are reliable. That could range from the basics such as caliber, brand, weight retained, or go to extremes such as noting the consistency of reporting. The work of each doc would have to be evaluated to see if they even know what they are talking about if they do such assessments. Many don't. They pull the slugs from the bodies, bag the slugs, and let the detectives do their jobs. So there may be no doctor data per se.

Unless you find a doc who is doing research specific to the problem, you won't find docs who keep tallies on the slugs pulled from bodies, much less all the specific information needed by someone in ballistics research. No doubt the information is out there in the millions of police case files in cities all over the world, but only as individual pieces of evidence in a larger packet of evidence.

Unit 900 noted .40s penetrating well and doing massive damage. No doubt most rounds have the potential to do this. With that said, Unit 900s statement has an unknown level of reliability to it. This is no slight against Unit 900, only the description give. Without specifics, can any of just judge what "penetrated deeply" means or what "massive damage" means? These are vague descriptors, colorful and give some idea of the extensiveness of the wounds, but still vague. Why vauge? None of us know the context of the things he has seen. Penetrating deeply on a 400 lb man is different than on a 150 lb man. The penetration may be 10" in both cases, but on the 400 lb man, that might only be just getting through the stomach fat whereas on the 150 lb man, it may have gone all the through the chest and finally come to rest in the spine. Massive damage? What is the gradient for light, medium, heavy, and massive damage? Where does one descriptor stop and another start? When we say "massive damage" are we referring to the whole body in general or to just specific locations. I have seen "massive" damage to an eye produced by a BB gun, but the wound itself was fairly minor except for the eye (which was lost).
 
#26 ·
Mus

A combination of long, hard work, superb training, and many years of investigative experience resulted in my discovery that Gargoyle claims to be a mercenary. Never one to do anything halfway my intense investigation also uncovered the fact that Gargoyle claims to be a security consultant. Further Gargoyle resides in Bloomington, Illinois and was born on February 19th. Gargoyle has been a contributing member of the 1911 Forum since mid 2001 and has produced, at this moment, over 350 posts. Mus, the capabilities of my unit are confidential, but you seem to be a nice man and I am in a terrific mood this morning after Navy Beat Army so I will violate the covenant I have with my government and tell you how I learned this information.
Mus, I clicked on the “Profile Tab”!

:biglaugh:
 
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