[mike benedict]

This is an actual incident captures on video.

In a major city in what was a nice neighorbood. You are the eyes of the camera.

A middle aged woman walking down the street carrying a shopping bag is being hasseled by 2 gang banger types. They are all complete strangers to you. Suddenly perp #1 forces the woman over the trunk of a parked car while low life #2 rips her pants off and begins to rape her.
You are in a darkened store entry way about 20 yards away and slightly behind the trio.
From your position you are all but invisable to the perps and they are under a well lighted street light.

From where you are it is a pretty easy shot.
So do you come to her rescue?
Call the cops on your cell phone?
Confront the pair?
or just let the unprepared take care of them selves.


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Mike Benedict
Talon Tactical Holsters

 

[Bill Lance]

For this, I would love to say take them out with a rifle. But reality sets in. I believe I would call 911, then confront them with weapon in hand and no patience for anything they do but comply.

 

[Matt N]

Option 1 (for CCW friendly areas)

Check to be sure there isn't a third of fourth. Dial 911 on the cell phone if the battery is working. Address the aggressors from cover if possible. Assess. I think in most cases the low lifes will run, particularly in a decent neighborhood. If they don't run close the gap behind cover or more likely at least one will be on his way toward you. I think you would be on the right side if you had to shoot either of them. A vicious crime was in progress, warning was issued, etc.

Option 2 (non CCW area)

Average response time in my area varies but is generally around 5 minutes. Close the gap from cover if poxxible and issue challenge. If there isn't any other cover, stay put and issue challenge. Again if the BG's don't run or go for you, I think you are justified but in for serious trouble.

Option 3 (non CCW area, NY, Chicago, LA)

If you live life dangerously and have serious backbone. Approach from cover quietly, covering watcher, issue challenge and if they don't disapear go for it. Don't stop to talk after the action and disappear yourself. The victim is unlikely to recognize you later.

As a real life experience this one is tough in a non-CCW area such as mine. I would find it impossible to not take some action.

 

[swampgator]

Matt,
Good post and welcome to the forum!

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www.afn.org/~guns

 

[fremont]

Call 911. I'm a great witness. End of story.

I don't put myself and my family at the mercy of some pimply 25 year old prosecutor, fresh from law school, and twelve of my "peers" (haha)--not to mention the family and lawyers of the aggrieved (i.e., the one or two of them that I smoked)--for someone who is not kin. No way, no how.

 

[ColtShooter]

>You are in a darkened store entry way about 20 yards away ...

OK; assuming no BG firearms in evidence (you have the initiative and a CCW).

You probably don't live in the store entry; you probably have someplace to be walking to; so walk. When the range is right, you call 911 on the cell phone (within hearing of the BG's, with your gun visible and ready to draw).

If they make a move to attack you, it's showtime, and you are in a valid position to protect yourself from deadly harm should you be attacked.

If they make good decisions and dash when presented with odds they don't like, you have no further problems.


However, "Call 911. I'm a great witness. End of story." is a pretty good answer.

 

[mike benedict]

This is a hard one for me also. I think I would warn them from cover. And shoot if they moved towards me. But what if they just told you to F*** off and went right on with the rape?

Would you shoot, challange them again or just walk away?

What actually happened was a beat cop walked up on then without saying a word and broke his night stick over the perp's head.



------------------
Mike Benedict
Talon Tactical Holsters

 

[BillD]

OK, I know I am going to sound bloodthirsty again. In my state you can legally use deadly force when your life is in danger, when someone is in your home and when protecting yourself or someone else from serious injury. I think rape applies. I yell at the guy and get his attention on me (I have my pistol on the rapist). When they turn to look at me, I tell them to get on the ground. Any hesitation on their part and I put one COM on both guys. Then I dial 911. Think I am wrong? I don't know, maybe I am but the woman doesn't deserve to be raped and these guys don't get a pass to get another woman the next night.

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The man who can keep his head and deliver accurate return fire while lead is whistling throught the air around him will most often prevail.

 

[fremont]

I hope the cop then stuck the jagged end up Perp #2's bungholio.

 

[Neil Casper]

I really liked BillD's answer.
I also like what the cop did.
I don't know what I would do unless it actually happened.
I hate to think of these perps getting away with the deed or the travesty that would take place in court if it got there.

I have done many things in my life based on how I felt about a certain situation AT THAT TIME. Later I have reflected on my choices and thought that I was crazy for doing what I did. But you know, I was never sorry or ashamed that I had done what I did.

Thanks Mike for another thought provoker.
Neil

[This message has been edited by Neil Casper (edited 01-05-2001).]

 

[thetoastmaster]

One thing I learned about having a CCW here in Utah: deadly force is justified in stopping a violent felony (including rape, kidnapping, and the like). I would definitely call 911 on the cell phone. But, that doesn't mean I'd let said thugs continue with their lacivious activities. Basically, do as the above fellers mentioned. Challenge the thugs with ol' Big Mouth on the one "in the act".

I'd probably put one in him, too, if he didn't take his out...

It's not about the legal implications. It's about morality, and doing what's right, all the time. I got my CCW because I believed then, and believe now, that I can be a grweat force for good as an armed citizen. I mean. what if any of us were in a situation like those poor folks in Mass.? Isn't it better to save a life, and deal with the consequences later? This situation is no different. People that hurt will hurt again. And taking these suckers out of the gene pool should get one a commendation, not a conviction. That's why I carry. It's not jewelry.

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"So don't forget-with enough determination you can win even when you appear to be losing-just keep shooting!"
-Bill Jordan, from No Second Place Winner

 

[fremont]

Toast,

Fair sentiments, but my role in life is to take care of my family. Not somebody's else's family (unless I'm an LEO or a soldier). I can't take care of my family when some Congress-aspiring prosecutor is charging me or a US deputy attorney is filing a civil rights beef against me. How do you know for a FACT before you pull the trigger that it wasn't consensual? Is it his wife or girlfriend? Three stupid drunk 20 year olds playing some kinky weird game? Are they filming a locale shot for a porno movie? I know that this may sound far-fetched, but I want you to consider what you're putting on the line: the possibility of a manslaughter or 2nd degree murder rap and losing your freedom (in addition to taking away a father or husband away from a family).

Did you ever take a psychological test where what appears to be obvious wasn't? Well, the prosecutor's office and the media will take their sweet time in bringing every little unknown fact to the surface while you spin on the end of a rope. You better be 120% certain before you get yourself involved in somebody else's beef. Because, there ain't no goin' back afterwards. Not worth the risk for this hombre.

I'm not saying don't help what appears to be a woman in great distress. I just don't think deadly force--emanating from a complete stranger--is the right answer.

 

[ColtShooter]

One of the problems with this scenario, is that as a 3rd party, you are inviting yourself into a situation. You are placing yourself "in harm's way" and then responding with deadly force; be definition escalating the threat by your presence. I would expect the prosecution to get all over this argument. If you are engaged in self-defense it is a littler simpler argument I think; the issue of previous behavior of the BG's (and your interpretation of it) is not an issue.

When you voluntarily put yourself in harm's way, you are trying to be the police (who get sued civilly for use of lethal force all the time).

Like Fremont, I think I would have a hard time inviting myself into someone else's "event", knowing how much is riding on my interpretation of the events I think I see happening. If the participants suck me into it by their threatening actions, it costs me time tactically and increases my danger, but leaves me on surer legal footing for use of lethal force for self-defense.

 

[Stocky]

If you can safely fire off a warning round...do so.
The sound will disarm their rape tool instantly, and probably change their attention & set of priorities.
Yell that the police are on the way.
"Do not" deter egress which eliminates hostage need. Suggest they "Scram".
Stay under safe cover throughout.
JMHO,
Stocky


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Anyone who isn't a paranoid schizophrenic now-a-days, just isn't thinking clearly!

 

[Shooter Ed]

I like Fremont's answer. Situations aren't always what they appear to be. I would dial 911 and wait for LEO. If the situation became more violent I probably yell a warning with gun in hand and defend my life if necessary.

My heart says it sure would be justice to double tap the perps.

Ed.

 

[fremont]

"Anyone who isn't a paranoid schizophrenic now-a-days, just isn't thinking clearly!"

Hey, Stocky....is your "signature" supposed to be describing me??!!

 

[thetoastmaster]

You gentlemen are saying that you'd let two thugs rape a woman, as you looked on, with the means to stop it? If that's the case, you may as well go home, and watch it on the ten o'clock news. It's pretty much an accepted fact that the one thing police are really good at is cleaning up the messes, and filing the appropriate paperwork. It's not the role of Big Brother to protect us from ourselves. And or present legal situation be damned, I am not going to let bad things happen to good people. It's also a fact that some moral acts are illegal, and some legal acts are immoral. That's the way it is. And I'm not going to commit some sin of ommission by letting an act like this continue on my watch. How could any God fearing man, or woman for that matter, watch an act like this transpire? I'm not talking about committing a "futile noble gesture", I'm talking about defending someone else's right to life, liberty, and property. I'm talking about stopping some slime ball, that you've caught in the act, at little immediate risk to yourself. Do you honestly think any jury of your peers would convict you of stopping an act of violence? A guess I have more faith in the people than that.

And never fire a warning shot. That bullet has to come down somewhere. That would surely land you in court, as a defendent. I want to be accountable for every shot.

------------------
"So don't forget-with enough determination you can win even when you appear to be losing-just keep shooting!"
-Bill Jordan, from No Second Place Winner

 

[BillD]

Toasty said: "You gentlemen are saying that you'd let two thugs rape a woman, as you looked on, with the means to stop it? If that's the case, you may as well go home, and watch it on the ten o'clock news. "

"How could any God fearing man, or woman for that matter, watch an act like this transpire? "

And I agree 100% but would add a little:

If it was your daughter, mother, wife raped on the street, how would you feel toward the guy with a pistol 20' away who chose not to stop it, in fact chose to watch and call 911 instead of acting? Would you call him an upstanding citizen? I always thought most people, especially all CCW & RKBA folks, would act in this situation. Have we turned into every man for himself and damn what goes on around us? I hope not.

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The man who can keep his head and deliver accurate return fire while lead is whistling throught the air around him will most often prevail.

 

[mike benedict]

This has turned out to be a very thought provoking post.
I don't think I could stand by and not intervene.
Maybe I watched too many Lone ranger shows while I was growing up.

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Mike Benedict
Talon Tactical Holsters

 

[ColtShooter]

>Do you honestly think any jury of your peers would convict you of stopping an act of violence? A guess I have more faith in the people than that.

I have worked around law enforcment (little street reserve time, lots of dispatch and records) for over a decade. I know of LOTS of cases in which a domestic violence victim refuses to testify about their assailant.

There is nothing in the scenario posted to indicate the relationship of the victim/offender; the information just isn't there. If you kill a BG in front of their significant other, don't be surprised when their sleective memory kicks in and they see you as the bad guy, intervening in their domestic bliss. With this despondent widow and any surviving BG's on the other team in court, the jury of your peers would be seeing a little different picture than you saw.

Sadly, "no", I don't have more faith in people than that.